MMORPGs; totally alien from P&PRPGs??
soundmasterj:
Hi Dan, just when I wanted to go to bed :)
I wrote a pretty long response but deleted it again, hereīs the short version: You should SERIOUSLY read the Forge article on gamism.
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/21/
It directly, perfectly explains your examples in GNS terms.
Also, youīre talking a lot about some ominous thing called SIS here, letīs have a look ( http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/27/ , the forge glossary)...
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Shared Imagined Space (SIS, Shared Imagination)
The fictional content of play as it is established among participants through role-playing interactions. See also Transcript (which is a summary of the SIS after play) and Exploration (a near or total synonym).
SIS means people create fiction solemly through interaction. This is different from the reception of already-produced creative content. Movie-going isnīt SIS, MMORPG doesnīt need SIS; you are able to play it all alone, no interaction. It is a different kind of sharing Imagination than what we do by roleplaying. I undestand how you could come to this understanding of the term, but Iīd say we use forge terminology here and in forge terminology, SIS is where we do shared imagination in a (more-or-less) symetrical communication context. Slaying WoW ogres is acting (not interacting) in context of (not thereby creating) already produced creative content.
In forge terms, Not. SIS.
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Asking where's the place for Narrativism in an MMORPG is, again, effectively trying to reduce HCDS into GNS terms, but trying to cram one terminology into the other doesn't help much.
No. I wasnīt talking about HCDS, I was talking about MMORPGS and if there is narrativist play happening there. Seems story happens, but Iīm not sure if the people actually want to make up stories or if they just try winning and story emerges naturally. I fear my initial intuition was wrong and while griefers make for great stories, they are actually just pricks. Iīd be greatly interested in finding actual narrativist play happening in MMORPGs.
Ron Edwards:
This nightmarish thread provides some previous discussion on this topic, as it's been revisited many times over the years: [D&D 3.5] Gamist Non-Affirmation. What I'm talking about is on page 5, in Bjorn's comment and my detailed response; it speaks directly to the larger topic of this thread.
Also, a frequent poster here, Christopher Kubasik, has spent a long time examining Narrativism in MMORPGs from inside that industry - whether it's there, what it is if it's there, who's interesting in developing it there, and so on. He might weigh into this thread sooner or later.
Finally, I do not want to dogpile you, Dan. I think it's a good topic and an important point. I'm open to back-and-forth; my posts are not a slapdown.
Best, Ron
soundmasterj:
CURSE YOU RON EDWARDS! ALWAYS ONE STEP AHEAD OF ME!
I just remembered where SIS happens in MMORPGs. People having sex with each other. There is no way to make two models have sex with each other in WoW as far as I know, but people still do it; they bump their characters into each other and type moans into the chat window. Doesnīt look like humping at all. Itīs only sex because both agree it is.
Yes, people actually do that. Iīve seen screenshots. Afterwards, I didnīt speak to my WoW - playing friends for like a week.
Callan S.:
I think in terms of gamism, the whole SIS thing is just a distraction. Doesn't need an SIS, don't need to talk about it. And I think the same goes for naratavism. SIS is just a technique. A sexy technique! But just a technique.
Or not. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm suggesting the whole SIS talk is a distraction.
Unless were talking simulationism...I'm not so certain there.
Though really HCDS strikes me as one step short - it describes deeds, and not the desire behind that deed. It's like saying someone who drinks a glass of water is a water drinker. Someone who kills your character is a killer? No, it was just a deed. It doesn't really say what spawned that deed.
Daniel B:
Wow,
oooookay .. meh, I'm wrong then. Ron was correct in thinking I'd only read "System Does Matter" and not the other introductory articles. (I've been wandering haphazardly through the site.) Think I'll go lurk for a while and read it all at my leisure.
Callan .. speaking of reading articles, "Killer" is just a convenient name. In fact the category refers to any type of action where you're pushing yourself upon other real-life people, or acting upon them as opposed to interacting. This may be as tame as being an in-game vendor, or simply being a jerk by giving people unwanted attention. However, given how oriented these games are towards combat, the term "Killer" seems to describe the largest number of people who favour this kind of behaviour.
Dan
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