MMORPGs; totally alien from P&PRPGs??
Daniel B:
I don't suppose any one could post an actual list of links to the intros??
I found the links once, but at the time I was looking for "System Does Matter". Yes, I could find them with more wandering or (if I decided to embrace insanity) the search function, but if someone's already got them bookmarked, you'd be doing me a favour.
Dan/Shallow Thoughts
soundmasterj:
My post got eaten by the server :|
Dan, forge articles can be found by looking at the top-right corner of this mere site. Or by reading my posts, where I linked them.
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/21/ gamism
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/27/ glossary
I hereby reiterate how you should read the gamism article, too. An important disctintion Ron made there is how "killer" behavior may as well be good clean fun (lets play gladiators! Are we killers now? If so, if being a killer is wrong I donīt wanna be right.) and exactly where and why it isnīt. Some killers are gamists, some not.
Also, Iīm sorry for introducing the SIS term without just linking you to the forge glossary in the first place, because your error wasnīt incoherence, but just unfamilarity with the forge terminology.
Callan, I think youīre wrong. SIS is what makes games RPGs in the Big Model sense. Iīm inclined to call Yathzee or some wargames gamist, but they got no SIS. So you may play D&D without it being a RPG (in the Big Model sense) at all! If I want to roll better than you because what it makes us both imagine, itīs an RPG (in BM sense), if I just want to roll better, it isnīt.
Also, SIS isnīt a technique, it is what techniques helps us do.
My question now is this. Is there narrativist play without SIS? Is the fact that I canīt think of any narr play without SIS a technical problem or an essential fact of SIS?
soundmasterj:
I imagine how we completely control the avatars in an MMORPG. We set them up on a conflict. We have them adress premise. It only works if we sharedly imagine them to have some kind of internal reality or itīs just bytes.
I imagine how we control different actors by microphones in their ears. We set up a drama situation, does Julius (played by an actor controlled by me) chose duty over friendship? But we have to sharedly imagine Julius feeling some kind of internal struggle (and we both now that the actor playing julius doesnīt).
Say we control animals by brain implants and raido. Our premise is: does mass beat might? Your antswarm eats my rat. I donīt even know if thatīs a premise, but it is only a story if we imagine that we didnīt actually set up that situation, making it represent something, but that it WAS the situation. So we need SIS.
Say our game is we introduce memes into a society. Our premise is, mean beats nice. My mean meme beats your nice one. But now it isnīt narr play, it is reality. We donīt need no SIS, but it isnīt "narr" neither, because we are making reality behave like a story, we donīt play story.
It seems to me that narrativism needs SIS because we need it to be like reality, but not reality.
(We roll dice, to have gamism we only need to value something, not imagine something. Simulationism... we take mind-altering drugs or something..? Now we donīt have an SIS, neither. Or we play MMORPGs in ways Iīd call sim or gam, we donīt need SIS. We may have SIS, but we donīt need it.)
Daniel B:
Oooh, didn't see that little "Articles" link in the top right. Whoopsie.
Don't ALL pieces of fiction have to be somewhat like reality? Otherwise, you're talking realms that are outside our ability to imagine. Pure mathematics deals with spaces of topologies we can't even begin to picture in our heads.
Dan
soundmasterj:
I definitely am not talking about what fiction is in the actual play forum of the forge. Narr play isnīt fiction, it might produce fiction, but itīs play. what Iīm asking is if there is Narr play without SIS. I canīt even begin to picture it in my head right now.
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