MMORPGs; totally alien from P&PRPGs??
Ron Edwards:
Hiya,
I ran a Forge search on "MMORPG" specifying the GNS, RPG Theory, and Actual Play forums. It revealed a lot more than I was expecting; we've been kicking this issue around since nearly day one.
I was going to winnow through and find all the strongest discussions, especially those which provided link summaries to what had gone before, but this time ... well, I didn't. I invite anyone interested to do that for us.
The Forge search function is actually quite powerful if you specify the right things, especially a key poster's handle when applicable (not the case this time). It's old-school logic, not Google logic, but you can get good at it with practice.
As moderator, I now decree that the rest of us back off and let the thread relax until Dan (Shallow Thoughts) decides what to say and where to go with the topic. The exception is whoever feels like doing the search and research I mentioned, if anyone.
Best, Ron
edited to fix a dumb initial moderation - RE
Daniel B:
Apparently this wasn't how the terminology wasn't originally intended but SIS suggests, to me, a space "created" when imaginations are shared among more than one person. Granted, if I'd been aware of the glossary first, I wouldn't have made the mistake, but am I wrong in thinking the term is quite misnomer-ish as it is?
If we're going to distinguish between my original interpretation and the concept of an imaginary space created only when each of the imaginations actively have a hand in deciding upon the content of that space or direction of the "story" (ie NOT movies or books, the "Forge-meaning"), then maybe we need a new term. Unfortunately this new term would still leave MMOGs lumped in with P&P's, because, technically, MMOGs involve more than one imagination deciding upon the content of the space and direction of the "story". For example, I construct a newly imagined character and he interacts with the imagined environment. Sometimes I can even build new objects for the space, such as potions or weapons. Granted, my imaginings are channelled within the rules of the game, but they're still products of my imagination. Just look at the names some people give their characters.
Dan
soundmasterj:
Dan, I donīt think we need terminology talk in here at all. What I was saying was that HCDS doesnīt really work for P&P because in P&P, every action fundamentally depends on interaction with other players.
Iīm greatly sorry for mostly changing this threadsī direction to "I call out people on their terminology use" and this is how I repent. I skimmed over half of the threads in the relevant forums containing the word MMORPG. Here are those I deem relevant:
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=14526.0
ADGBoss makes up a model somewhat close to HCDS. The (short) thread gets interesting when they point out how 1. MMORPGS donīt make for sharing credibility around; no SIS means no protagonism means no narr play! That seems to be the connection. 2. Exploring the non-SIS WoW world actually isnīt that different from exploring the Super Mario or Civilization world. Same goes for "gamist" MMORPG play in relation to other challenge-based solo video games.
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=12223.0
Followup thread to the above. Long. In the beginning mostly about SIS. In the end mostly is about pointing out the misconception that the computer has to be thought of as a player (no, heīs dice and books, not GM!).
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=12262.0
A thread asking for the difference between MMORPG and solo CRPG. What I found most interesting is how it reminds us that in most PC games we take on one single role. IIRC, what makes PC games "RPGs" is that you level up, ie., the avatar improves in itself, not through accidentia, thereby channeling character. So it looks completely coincidential but actually makes a lot of sense.
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=5332.0
Thread about how holographics would influence play. Not much it seems. Rob Muadīdib points out how SIS works by sketching, while sight does not (the bottleneck isnīt pixels, but sketchiness of input).
Callan S.:
Quote from: soundmasterj on November 16, 2008, 03:07:24 AM
Callan, I think youīre wrong. SIS is what makes games RPGs in the Big Model sense. Iīm inclined to call Yathzee or some wargames gamist, but they got no SIS. So you may play D&D without it being a RPG (in the Big Model sense) at all! If I want to roll better than you because what it makes us both imagine, itīs an RPG (in BM sense), if I just want to roll better, it isnīt.
Also, SIS isnīt a technique, it is what techniques helps us do.
My question now is this. Is there narrativist play without SIS? Is the fact that I canīt think of any narr play without SIS a technical problem or an essential fact of SIS?
Okay, lets say were talking and I ask you to imagine a character, probably one that fits a medieval era, then describe his persona for a little while before we move on. Okay, I then say there's a sail boat at sea with its crew and passengers, on fire. And your character is on the second boat, which is perfectly safe. Now, with the ability to take some liberties of invention with what gear is around, what does your character do? (which can obviously include staying on the safe boat).
I would call this a thematic question/situation, suitable to narrativist play. I myself am actually really interested in characters you might think of! But it doesn't involve an SIS - just a bit of conversation and parlour narration.
Could you enjoy answering this question when there is no SIS? Even mildly enjoy - the question is slightly generic in how I wrote it, so perhaps not terribly punchy. Could you even mildly enjoy answering or does there have to be an SIS to enjoy it?
I think most people who want narrativism would find atleast some small amount of interest/enjoyment in answering it entirely outside of an SIS. If it is indeed true that they can enjoy it without an SIS, then the SIS isn't needed to have fun answering it. Gamism definately works in exactly the same way.
So that's some evidence towards the idea that narratavism doesn't need an SIS.
Ron Edwards:
A little bit of aaaarrgh. Callan, my call is that the terms for each Creative Agenda were chosen to express how certain, specific human social urges were realized (in the sense of "brought about") in the medium of an SIS. Using those terms in that way, as proposed, isn't intended to imply that those urges don't exist otherwise or don't find expression otherwise.
I'm beginning to think this thread is turning into GNS 101 and isn't about its original topic at all. Dan (Sh.Th.) - is there any chance you can start a new thread about some actual role-playing that you've actually done, and we can use it as a starting point for discussing what is apparently the real topic - the basic meaning of "Creative Agenda." Maybe, this is what happened, and this is what I think is going on in Big Model terms, or perhaps, this is where I don't grasp how the Big Model makes sense of it.
On the other hand, if there is in fact a specific reason why you want to understand MMORPGs as such, then I have to say that the Big Model is about SIS-based role-playing and nothing else. There may be correspondences, areas of overlap, similarities in agenda, whatever, but if the correspondence is 0% or 100%, it's of no particular interest unless you really want to talk about MMORPGs. I'm sort of getting the idea, and correct me if I'm wrong, that you don't.
Best, Ron
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