[Solar System] Armor as Effect
dindenver:
Eero,
I saw you write how armor crafted using an Ability check could be considered an Effect as opposed to becoming Gear with an Armor bonus.
This makes sense, except, I don't know how to interpret the Effect mechanically. I see different alternatives and I am not sure which you intended, the thoughts I had:
1) Effect Armor 4(V) means it absorbs 4 successful Ability checks for Harm ([possibly regardless of how much Harm is generated by the check), then it goes away
2) Effect Armor 4(V) means it has 4 harm boxes, one each for Harm levels 1, 2, 3 and 4 and you use them first if that appropriate levels of Harm are scored.
3) Effect Armor 4(V) means you get 4 bonus die to defend, then the armor is gone
My instinct tells me to go with Option 3, but something in the description made me think that Option 1 or 2 is what you had in mind.
Any clarification would be appreciated.
oliof:
My understanding:
Your opponent needs to beat the Effect Level to harm you directly (i.e., needs Success Level 5, which is reduced by the Effect Level) or needs to beat (or match) the Effect Level to destroy the armor by attacking it directly, where each success level destroys one point of the armor. So, the first attempt to be at Success Level 5 (4) against the armor removes one point of the Effect, lowering the overall efficacy of the Effect to 3 …
Why differentiate? Depending on your method of attack, trying to destroy the armor might be unfeasible. Depending on circumstances (and rules bits) you might want to get the armor (i.e., steal the Effect). Sometimes, you're fine with removing only a couple of effect levels because you can bypass lower levels by other means, i.e. a piece of weaponry.
Eero Tuovinen:
The player whose Effect it is makes the choice of how to handle the Effect on a case-by-case basis. Effects are just Ability checks frozen-in-time, so the options for how to use that Ability check are the same as they'd be if the check were made right at this moment: either it is a support check, in which case you get bonus dice from it, or it's a check by itself to get something done, in which case it's treated exactly like any other Ability check made in conflict. The rules are flexible on which option is more appropriate for a given situation, except that the bonus dice option is preferred most of the time simply because it tends to be slightly weaker - your opponent basically needs to cooperate a bit for you to be able to use the Effect directly against him.
Simple Conflict
To use that in practice, let's say you have that Effect of "Plate Armor 4/V" and you're going into battle against an appropriately armed opponent. It's a normal conflict at this point, I'll deal with extended next. You could declare any of the following when negotiating stakes:
"I'm checking my 'Swordfighting' Ability and dueling him to the ground. My armor provides me with an edge, as it limits the efficient attack forms he can use. I spend two bonus dice from the armor." This means that you lower your Effect's value by two dice and get those to your conflict check with your Swordfighting Ability. This is the simple default manner in which you'd use an armor. Why does it break down when it's used? You can describe the armor getting worn down by the heat of battle if you want, but in truth this is a dramatic conceit - a movie would be boring if the same trick saved the hero time and again, so we're limiting the number of bonus dice you can get out of that one trick. After the battle you can check your "Warrior Equipment Maintenance" Ability to re-create the used Effect anew, representing how you take care of the armor; if you happen to still have a couple of points invested in the armor Effect at that point, you can just spend those to support the maintenance check, ensuring that you'll get a good value in your new Effect. Or you can decide to not refresh the armor, in which case it'll run down at some point - either the character discards it after its straps break down and it's full of holes, or we just stop focusing on it as a source of advantage when it's been relied on too many times."I ignore my opponent, I know that his weak blows have nothing against my Genoan plate." This is the option where you basically put your Effect in between yourself and your opponent; it's not always possible, depending on how the opponent describes his action, but when you both agree that it's reasonable (or the SG does some creative refereeing), you can use the Effect as your primary defense. In this case you wouldn't roll the dice yourself at all (or would roll to accomplish something else, perhaps), but your opponent would rather make a check directly against the value of the Effect itself. He could choose to specify that his action is against the Effect itself, in which case you'd probably lose the Effect when and if he succeeds. Or he might choose to try to hurt you, in which case the Effect value is handled as a straightforward replacement for your own Ability check, which you're not making now. This sort of solution is not very common when two characters are against each other (this armor example is a bit contrived in that), as your own skills factually do come into play in almost any armor vs. weapons interaction, but this sort of thing is pretty natural when the Effect is something you've left behind to do your bidding while you're yourself away somewhere: the example I use in the booklet is setting a trap, I think: the guy who set the trap isn't there to oppose you, but assuming that he's still paying for the Effect, the Effect certainly is.
Extended Conflict
Extended conflict is basically the same as simple conflict, except we're working on the level of individual actions. In the negotiation phase of each round the players can declare what they're trying to do; this includes how their Effects are going to interact with the situation and how they're going to interact with the Effects of their opponents. Characters can always explicitly attack the Effects of other characters, which is basically an opposed check for Harm, opposition coming from the Effect itself and the Harm lowering the value of the Effect as well. However, just like characters could interpose themselves in between a source of Harm and the victim, so can an Effect, which is why you need to decide whether you're trying to destroy the armor or its owner: who takes the Harm you cause depends on that.
To come back to your three options, the first two are wrong in that Effects do not have Harm boxes. Instead, they directly reduce their value when they suffer Harm. This makes Effects hard but frail, which is appropriate, as they're not characters however beloved they might be. So if the "Plate Armor 4/V" Effect were attacked by an opponent intent on ruining it somehow (cutting supporting straps, say, or lighting it on fire to force you to take it off), any success over the Effect's value would reduce the value itself. So an opponent who manages a level 5 success is going to reduce the armor to "Plate Armor 3/V", just like if you spent one level of it for bonus dice. On the other hand, if the Effect won the comparison, it'd gain whatever effect was declared for it in the negotiation phase - usually this'd be bonus dice, as armor and other passive Effects probably wouldn't do anything to directly harm the opponent.
Your third option is basically right, except that you don't need to spend all the bonus dice in the armor at once, you can spread them to several checks. This is the default manner of using Effects and should be available pretty much always when the Effect is somehow pertinent; unlike the more complex "handle Effect like an Ability check" options above, the opponent can't really negotiate himself out of you using your armor for bonus dice, assuming that he's fighting you at all.
How does the smart guy fight against armor, then? The basic principle is to describe your actions in ways that do not justify the opponent just interposing his armor Effect against your check, because that usually will leave you open to a double-whammy: the opponent makes his own check to attack you AND his armor might block your own attack. Avoiding this might be as simple (depending on the genre) as describing how you focus your attacks on weak points and do not waste your time trying to break through the armor, or it might be as hard as desisting from direct attacks completely. Your two choices against an Effect-dependent opponent are basically to either destroy the Effect or work around it; this is appropriate, as if we're running around with stuff like "Plate Armor 4/V", we do kinda presume that it'll count for something when a fight comes. The opponent will need special tools (punch-daggers, say, to break through the armor) and tactics (smothering the knight inside his armor might do the trick, perhaps) to get around the full-body protection the armor provides. This is fine with me, as something like getting encased in metal is pretty much the professional win-button when it comes to medieval warfare. Other, less comprehensively useful Effects will be easier to get around and more difficult to apply.
And, of course, this all depends on how the given genre works as regard plate mail. In some stories and game worlds it's a given that only cowards and incompetents sheathe themselves in metal, which is then enough grounds to favor the opponent in choosing how the plate armor Effect works - get a couple of bonus dice out of it before the opponent punches his dagger through the faceplate or drops you in a conveniently placed lake.
Paul T:
You know, I asked about this a little while ago (in a slightly different way), and I'm still not entirely sure I get it. It seems kind of awkward, and I'm having trouble wrapping my head around it.
To wit:
1. Solar System/TSoY is specifically designed so that someone Unskilled (0) always has a chance against even a Grand Master (4). However, what you're saying about Effects, Eero, acting as an "opponent" without a roll, seems to break that aspect of the system. If you have "Plate Mail - 4/V", and my relevant Abilities are all at level 1, how can I ever hurt you or reduce your armour's rating? I can't roll any higher than 4, can I?
2.
Quote from: Eero Tuovinen on November 20, 2008, 11:29:26 AM
However, just like characters could interpose themselves in between a source of Harm and the victim, so can an Effect, which is why you need to decide whether you're trying to destroy the armor or its owner: who takes the Harm you cause depends on that.
This also confuses me! Since when can a character interpose themselves between a source of Harm and a victim? I asked about this a while back, asking whether you could make a opposed check for bonus dice--i.e. a defensive Ability check--to defend another character, and the answer you gave was that, no, the only way to keep someone else from doing something was to Harm them until they drop out of the conflict.
And, since Solar System doesn't use any sort of grid or positioning, what else could "interpose themselves" mean?
(Upon rereading this post, I realize it may sound angry or frustrated. You should know that it most definitely is not the case: I'm merely trying to clear up a few points about this before I apply it in play. Eero, you've been extremely helpful, and I really appreciate all the time you're taking!)
Thanks!
Paul
Just to clarify: None of those are problems with the straight-up "bonus dice" version. So, my concerns are only about the other options being discussed here.
dindenver:
Paul,
I am still a little fuzzy too. But, this is what I "think" ti means:
The armor, in essence, becomes a character that has no pool and one Ability Armor (V) 4. And if you can narrate the armor coming between you and the attack, then the armor roll fudge dice +4 vs whatever you are attacking with.
If I understand correctly, Eero is trying to say that this positioning is narrative positioning. As in lying in wait and jumping the char when they don't have armor on or aiming for a vulnerable spon in the armor (gap, joint, strap, etc).
I will admit that a lot of this is interpreting what Eero posted, so he may come back and say I got it wrong.
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