[Sorcerer] Demons as Natural Forces and appropriate stamina scores...
The Dragon Master:
I'm working on a one-shot based on Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norel with the definition of Demon being natural forces (for example, Venetian Canals or the west wind). I've been creating some sample Sorcerers and Demons so that I can get a feel and spot any weaknesses in the one-sheet I'm working up (which I'll be posting once I've gotten through a few more characters), and I've hit something of a snag. Given that the demons are natural forces (a river, a forest, a canal) I really don't know what I should set the stamina at. How would I determine that?
For instance, the Demon I'm writing up now is the Venetian Canals (bound by the titular Jonathan Strange about halfway through the book). What range would work for the stamina there? Or what If I'm dealing with the "Yorkshire Forest", how would I determine the stamina for that? Is there a template to work off of here? I'm temporarily using 8-10 as the stamina for forces on that scale, and 6-8 as the stamina for somewhat smaller forces (such as a garden path that was bound towards the end of the book by a little girl). How does that sound?
angelfromanotherpin:
I think a lot of that sort of thing can be handled by making the Demon normally with the addition of Big. That Ability really does shift the creature's position in the imagined space in the way I think you want. Once it's described as existing on a different scale, players just automatically and internally take all sorts of options off the table (of course I can't wrestle it, it's a flippin' house) and add new ones (it's going to smash the bridge, isn't it?).
This sort of thing ties into the part where the Sorcerer book talks about things which are permissible in the game space, where ordinary men do not even get a roll to try to jump over an elephant, because that would just be obviously stupid. Well, really big men do get a roll to jump over that elephant, and stupidly big men don't even need a roll to step over the elephant.
Once that's handled, deciding on the actual number is just a matter of deciding how terrifying you want it to be relative to the scores of other characters. e.g. If you want Venetian Canals to have a decent chance of drowning (say) Conan, then it should have a Stamina similar to Conan (5-6). It matters less how much frothing water the thing can throw around than how much chance the thing has to actually beat another character.
Ron Edwards:
Hey,
Use the demon creation steps in the rules exactly in order, just like the book says to do. You'll find they work perfectly for what you're asking.
The logic is that the demon's presence in the fiction is functionally-driven, in other words, what it is capable of doing. That means you effectively start with its abilities, then work the scores in from there.
In fact, the logic that you're using, starting with "what is it" (a teddy bear, a tank, a monster-bear, a forest) and then asking "how much Stamina is that," is expressly forbidden in the sense that the steps of demon creation (which are fixed in that order) cannot support such logic.
It is entirely appropriate for a whole-forest demon to have a Stamina of 2. It is also entirely appropriate for it to have a Stamina of 12. However, the only way you can know which is appropriate for this demon, in this game, is to use those steps in order.
Best, Ron
Ron Edwards:
I took a look at those rules and I think I might see where you're running into trouble. I'll try to clarify one of the key steps.
It says, set Stamina based on how tough you think the demon is. What I'm getting at in the thread is what "tough" means, and how that can be achieved via all the rules.
Stamina is best understood as a kind of battery for demon abilities, as well as a basic roll for physical actions and defense. OK, so we're looking at a demon who's a forest, and I will work with you in that we really want a physical forest. As in, a protagonist looks around himself, sweating in fear, and says, "How can we fight a whole fucking forest?"
The simplistic view is to think in terms of hit points. Shit, it's huge? OK! We need so many hit points that no player-character could ever hit it hard enough, or enough times, to kill it! Stamina 20! Stamina 30! Stamina 100! Trouble is, that won't work in Sorcerer.
It works much better to start with the abilities, like the list says, and then move to Stamina. OK, for pure and simple abilities to negate or stifle attacks upon it, we'll need Big, Armor, and Vitality. Trust me: play by the rules with these fuckers, and the demon is horrific. Even with a Stamina of 3 or 4, with these, you can put the thing down (which in the case of the forest, means it stops hurting you) but it will in fact keep coming back unless you annihilate it with ultra-heavy demon power of your own.
Now add the abilities that you want it to have in terms of proactive, demonic stuff in play. I dunno what you have in mind, but let's say four more abilities on top of the three I mentioned. That means a Lore of at least 7, which means a Power of at least 8.
OK, with Power 8, that means Stamina of 1 through 7. What the hell, let's say 7. Notice that this is at or just past the border of what any sane player-character might have in a given score. (If a character has 7-2-1 or 8-1-1 in any combination, that character has enough problems without having the forest around in the first place! Which is OK, I'm just saying we're at that line.)
So, Stamina 7 with Big, Armor, and Vitality. Does anyone who's played savage-combat Sorcerer feel a little scared yet? Frank?
In this context, Stamina is kind of a baseline for the application of those abilities. Big pops a lot of dice that operate for defense; Armor means it takes only temporary damage from at least one kind of attack (and you can give it multiple Armors); Vitality means it recovers from horrible amounts of lasting damage too. All at once means that your "measly" 7 is way hard to kill.
And nothing's saying that you can't move Stamina upwards, say to 9 or 10 if you want. Of course, that means a commensurate Will and Power, and so that demon would be so horrible as to require only the very best strategizing, preparation, teamwork, and combination of cooperative demons to bring it down.
What might those other abilities be, too? It's not like the thing is just sitting there taking punishment. As long as we're talking about a scary forest, Psychic Blow comes to mind. So does Taint. Shadow, which is very effective if you think in terms of penalizing perceptions. And if you consider Fast, Special Damage (lethal), or Hold, well, that's just mean, which is to say perfect ...
Best, Ron
James_Nostack:
Sorcerer combat veteran here: Stamina 7 is actually pretty impressive even without demonic powers.
Most PC's will probably be pushing Stamina 3-4, with a few outliers at 5 or even 6 (who, as Ron noted, have their own set of problems). The way the Sorcerer dice mechanic works, let's say you have X dice and I have Y dice. Your odds of winning a simple context are X over (X + Y). So if you've got 3 dice and I have 7, I'm pretty much taking the offensive in combat 70% of the time--you're going to be lucky to even defend against me in a protracted combat, let alone defeat me.
Also, keep in mind that using Armor around Power 5-6 or higher means the user is almost untouchable, as it converts virtually all impacts into the most minimal damae: the only way to overcome Armor this thick is to use some serious Boost or Special Damage.
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