[Sorcerer] Demons as Natural Forces and appropriate stamina scores...
James_Nostack:
Dragon Master, if you're trying to do Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrel more or less by-the-book, most of what those two magicians do isn't sorcery as the Sorcerer game defines the term in the core rules. Other than Norrell's relationship with the Fairy Prince, a lot of the magic is consequence-free stuff, very much fire-and-forget, usually performed with the aid of local spirits / genii. In baseline Sorcerer play, demons are sort of like unreliable henchmen who have enduring relationships with their masters.
I'd probably run most magic in that setting as a Pact. Pacts are described in Sorcerer & Sword, but the idea is: instead of a formal, long-term binding, you make very specific agreement. The sorcerer doesn't have to provide for the demon's Need at all: that's strictly the demon's responsibility; on the other hand, the demon only serves for the duration of the Pact. The Pact can serve instead of a Binding, where the difficulty increases based on both the open-endedness of the task and the likely duration. ("Guard me against Ron Edwards as long as we both shall live" might be about as hard as "Guard me against everyone for the next two days".) If the sorcerer fails the Pact roll, the results are up to the GM, but may include allowing the demon to twist the instructions around.
I'd also spend a little bit of time thinking about how "demons" in this world are related to "humanity" in the game, and how both of these concepts connect to "lore." They don't have to be strongly connected, but it often makes the game feel a little bit more unified thematically.
Ron Edwards:
OK, my mistake, the whole "canals" imagery threw me, and I failed to understand that (a) you're not using the Dictionary of Mu and (b) you're not even talking about friggin' Mars.
So ignore all that stuff about memory. Yes, if you're basically defining the physicality of the demon as a canal, then people can row along it without the demon having any corresponding ability. However, do examine those four ability breakdowns to see whether you want to allow some volitional elements - the concept of the destination "of someone's choosing" is quite important. If you don't choose any of those abilities, then you'd have a basic place for the demon which would be much like the same place any normal canal would be ... and yet, even then, it could use its Stamina to try to herd or force travelers upon it to somewhere it preferred.
I am beginning to wonder whether this thread should also include some discussion of "natural" in Sorcerer. It's pretty fundamental to the game concept (and to the way a number of its rules intersect in application) that demons are never actually natural. Have you read Sorcerer & Sword? It goes pretty deeply into how you can have a magic setting and still have horrific demons that aren't "right," and also how you can have demonic animals (easily extended to geographic features) without them becoming merely more magic. Let me know if this hasn't arisen as an issue.
Also, I have zero familiarity with the source material you're talking about, so you'll have to catch me up on the basics.
Best, Ron
James_Nostack:
Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell is a pretty well done historical fantasy tome in the Gaiman mode. Plot centers on the rivalry between two magicians contending for status in Georgian England. One of them cuts a bad bargain with a Fairy Prince, and in this respect the book has some Sorcerer in it, but easily 90% of the magic in the book is incidental color--you might as well treat "magician" as a rare-to-the-point-of-uniqueness Cover, which, come to think of it, is pretty much how the novel treats it.
Actually, I wouldn't mind a digression on "weird" natural settings. Comparisons and contrasts between Azk'arn, Marr'd, and the "weird tech" and drugs stuff from Sorcerer & Sword might be helpful.
The Dragon Master:
Ron: Transport (confer to self) sound like exactly what I was looking for, and I'll be bookmarking that post as I figure it may well come up again later.
The scene in the book I was envisioning as I pulled this up was one in which after being tossed into the (let's reword it to reduce confusion) Canals of Venice, a character is carried by said canals to a location in a distant part of the city of venice, to be tossed at the feet of Jonathan Strange. That is why I felt it needed Transport. It is also why I felt it needed Link (to know where Jonathan Strange was at the time), though thinking on it since he was near the canal anyway it may well not be necessary.
To answer the question, I don't have Sorcerer and Sword, just the main Sorcerer book (of which I bought several more copies recently from the sorcerer-rpg.com site for my play group), so things referencing it will likely fly past me without me being the wiser.
When I selected this as the setting I was looking at characters like "The Man with the Thistle Down Hair" (the above mentioned fae), and The Raven King. Both of them are spoken of having treaties (don't quite recall the word used) with the spirits of natural forces, the west wind being mentioned, as well as some forest whose name I don't quite recall. I
Hmm.. Looks like this book doesn't quite work for source material. Looking now over the three settings I was planning on, it appears that I am without applicable source material for any of them. This wouldn't be a problem if I was just running them for my group, but as the intention would be to run them at a convention, for people I don't know, I'm... hesitant to run a demo that has no real source material for potential players to draw on. Guess I'll scratch the idea of running it then. I'd hate to get someone else mixed up about how the game works based on a miscomunication, and if my source material is flawed that is almost certain to happen.
Well, thank you for your help. I'm going to bow out of the discussion now as I doubt I'll have anything more of value to add, but don't stop on my account, I'm sure someone out there will find it of use.
James_Nostack:
Dragon Master - do you have a real name? - I actually think this could be the basis for a great Sorcerer setting, but I'd probably range a little bit further afield to flesh it out a little bit. How familiar are you with the Romantic Era generally? Throw in some Byronic sorcerers (including Doctor Frankenstein!), guys like William Blake, Goethe's Faust, and you've got a bunch of sorcerous themes running around.
Look and Feel - Europe during the Romantic Era. Napoleon's armies, Mad King George, the French Revolution is working its way into despotism, the Greek War of Independence, Beethoven, etc.
Inspirations - Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrel, Frankenstein, Blake's mythology, Goethe's Faust, Confessions of an English Opium Eater, various Gothic novels.
Humanity - This is a dual definition. Humanity is (a) following one's passions regardless of where it leads, particularly against established ecclesiastical or secular authorities in the name of some Great Cause like Beauty, Reason, or the People, and (b) empathy for other people. (The way a dual Humanity definition works is that a single action might merit a loss-roll in one category, and a gain-roll in another. So, for example, Dr. Frankenstein's creation of the monster is a victory for Reason, but his disgust and revulsion at his "child" merits a loss-roll. Love - particularly a love that shatters all social conventions - would merit two gain-rolls.) I'd also include a rule that spending a week or so brooding in a scene of transcendent natural beauty allows a Humanity gain-roll, just to mirror some of the conventions in the fiction.
Demons - demons in this setting are best left kind of undefined, but with the implication that most of them are things cast off, damned, or overlooked by the Creator - Mephistopheles, the Vampyr, the Fairy Prince, etc. etc. These are creatures whose very existence is contrary to the natural order of things. They're not necessarily Evil-with-a-capital-E, but their existence is a sort of instability or dis-equilibrium state.
Lore - hmm, still thinking about this. It's clearly related to passion, but there's also a technical expertise side to this too: Faust, Frankenstein, and Norrel were all masters of pretty esoteric knowledge. (These might be two different "descriptors" pointing toward the same quality, but if so I'm not sure what it is.)
Sample Demon - Adam (a/k/a Frankenstein's Monster)
Type - Passer
Telltale - translucent yellowish skin that "barely disguised the workings of the vessels and muscles underneath"
* Big
* Perception: Master's Whereabouts
* Vitality
* Possibly something else, it's been a long time since I read it
Stamina 6
Will 7
Lore 3
Power 7
Desire - Knowledge
Need - Affection (once the demon goes deep into Need, its Desire changes to Mayhem)
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