[Sorcerer] Demons as Natural Forces and appropriate stamina scores...
The Dragon Master:
Thank you for the help, I actually did start with the powers (seemed easiest that way since I had a fair notion of what powers I wanted it to have). But then, as you suspected Ron, I hit the part where it says "based on how tough you think the Demon is", but I haven't dealt with combat in the game, and as such don't have a feel for how tough each increment is. I hadn't though thought of using Armor, or Vitality, or Big. I had it in my head that those apply to the sorcerer rather than the Demon (in contradiction to the text a few pages earlier that talks about who the user is). I'll work on it some more and probably post what I come up with here for review.
Angelfromanotherpin: Thank you for your post, reading over it (again) it reminds me that there is an example of a large, location type demon in the book (from the demo scenario in there) that I can look to for a sort of baseline.
James_Nostack: Thanks for the advice. I hadn't thought of combat in that way (again, haven't run more than one combat) and that is a good way to look at it.
Again, I'll modify my Demons and see how they work out, and probably post them here.
Ron Edwards:
I'll look forward to discussing the demons.
Hey James, what you're saying is true for a straight-up fight, and it's definitely a helpful point to the immediate concern. I'd also like to encourage people to think in terms of preparation, knowing their enemy (and who the enemy is), and tactics that strike from different angles at once. Only rarely does "mine is bigger" work in the game, and in fact, never reliably. The game suits "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" very well, in that the two new "friends" can work together in unexpected ways. Not so much standing shoulder to shoulder against (say) the forest, but more in terms of Will rolls, Banish rolls, fighting/damage of particular kinds, and even more importantly, dealing with the Binding context for that demon.
I've never known how to describe it, but sorcerers in the game really are just people, and demons aren't super-powers; it's not about bulking up in terms of power or range of abilities. A lot of the game design is based on the idea that the fiction-in-progress offers its own solutions, or windows of opportunity, to use the particular assortment of capabilities one has at the moment. Ahhh, I don't know if I'm saying it even now.
Best, Ron
James_Nostack:
Right: what I'm describing is a bog-standard type of "you whale on me, now I whale on you" type of deal, which I find boring to the point of suicide in most RPG's, which isn't rewarded at all in Sorcerer. Fights in Sorcerer are a little bit like fights in real life in one respect: people get into fights for a reason (not necessarily a good one), and there's a ton of "positioning" that goes on beforehand. In any serious conflict of interests, serious people are going to bring serious resources to bear, not just in terms of sheer force, but in terms of emotional & moral commitment, preparation, and so forth.
In Sorcerer, if you're in a fight, you've got to be angling for every source of bonus dice you can get: tactical bonuses, the clever quip bonus, preferably the "make life difficult for others" bonus, but especially rollover bonuses. It can be difficult to do this on the fly, but if things get to the point that people are trying to maim you, you don't want to take any chances.
Still: as a general rule, Power 4-8 is probably enough for just about every demon, unless there's some special case where you absolutely have to have something bigger. It pays to think out exaclty what you want this thing to do, and then build the demon accordingly.
The Dragon Master:
So here's the Venetian Canals demon
Type: Passer Desire: Mischief Need: (still deciding)
Telltale: seems to take note of those passing by it
Powers: Confuse, Hold, Link, Special Damage (drowning, relatively lethal), Transport*, Big, Armor, Vitality
Lore: 8 Stamina: 4 Will: 9 Power: 9
This means that to resist damage it will have 13 dice (wow, hadn't realized how potent Big was till I did this) to resist damage. Lasting damage will be reduced by 9 after combat, and damage will be done on th fists collumn (for normal damage). Actually, he seems a little more potent than I'd though he'd be. Do I seem to have it right? This feels right to my mind, but if I'm not applying something right, this would be the point to find out.
And thank you all for your help, and a Happy Thanksgiving.
*Does this one seem necesary or do we just say that since it's a river, of course people can sail on it?
Ron Edwards:
Hiya,
That's a really tough demon, that's for sure. If I'm not mistaken, it isn't really hostile-looking. That in itself is no big deal ... but I want to understand why it's a demon in the first place. Is it because the canals no longer exist, and as such this demon is the memory of the canals? That's how it works on Marr'd, if I recall correctly. If so, then I get it, and that's pretty cool.
If it were really a canal, then you wouldn't need Transport, but since the canal is "not really there," I guess it ought to have it. You should consider these four options very carefully, though:
Transport (confer to other) = a person on the canal can take a bunch of people to destinations of his or her own choosing
Transport (confer to self) = the canal can take a bunch of people to destinations of its own choosing
Travel (confer to other) = people can use the canal to go to destinations of their own choosing
Travel (confer to self) = the canal can itself go places, to appear in different locations on Marr'd as it sees fit
It strikes me that having more than one of these might be along the lines you're thinking. Also, unless you want the drowning potential to be absolutely savage, then you can treat the drowning as the simple Fists attack that all demons have by default, and not waste a Lore slot on it. Combined with Hold, a 9-Stamina Fists attack is quite deadly on its own.
Why bother with Link? Link is one of those sexy abilities that people always take, but I suggest looking it over carefully and deciding whether you really need it.
Best, Ron
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