From theory to practice - GNS, CA, SIS, etc.
Daniel B:
Hello,
Eero: thank you again. I'll check out your posts on Zombie Cinema.
David: thanks!! I'll take a look.
Ron: apologies that the post wasn't appropriate. It hadn't occurred to me that it might be a problem since it was actual-play-oriented, and reviewing my own experiences is only so helpful even in the public domain. Taking the next step and actually building RPGs with the Big Model in mind is inefficient for my purpose of gaining a full understanding of the model from several angles (not to mentioned the fact that anything I build will incorporate my biases, despite my best efforts). In my searching of this site, I haven't much luck finding examples of people who have *explicitly* woven the Big Model and GNS theories into their designs, so I was hoping to draw these experiences into one thread and avoid the grunt-work of combing the archives. That said; I'd love to help you construct a "sticky" for it, and am willing to do grunt-work if this thread can't be allowed to stay open. (In fact, if you're hideously busy, I'm quite willing to do the grunt-work myself and have you simply review it before stickying it.) I've just been using the search feature so far, but I think I'll start going through the oldest "Actual Play" posts.
Okay, I am going to put forth an opinion after all. Why am I looking for live-play examples? Well, I don't believe one can truly understand a theory unless they've seen it work in a variety of situations. (This is at least true for me.) Of the threads I've hunted through so far, one common theme seems to be that GNS and the Big Model are to RPG design like Gravity is to Physics; even people who aren't aware of the theories must have followed them to some degree if their design was successful. I agree, but only to some extent.
I tend to think RPG design is like architecture or computer programming. They all involve the construction of a "thing" that must meet well-defined needs, even though the needs themselves may be defined vaguely. ("I want the library's main building to be an attractive blue cube-ish thing.") A given construction is entirely unique, but there are certainly sets of accepted design/construction patterns in these fields. One cannot be a consistently good designer or builder without a firm grasp of those patterns even if his designs regularly fly in the face of those patterns. I believe the Big Model may be one of these patterns (.. actually I think it's a "pre-pattern", asking questions that must be asked before the real design can take place). Before I try to construct my own "building", I'm just looking for other "buildings" that use the concepts of the model in a variety of different contexts and from a variety of different peoples' interpretations of the model.
Ron: is there a way to pose this question to the general community in a more appropriate way, or should I stick to constructing an answer by reviewing previous posts?
Dan
Daniel B:
Quote from: ShallowThoughts on December 05, 2008, 02:00:15 PM
Ron: is there a way to pose this question to the general community in a more appropriate way, or should I stick to constructing an answer by reviewing previous posts?
It occurs to me I should have asked that last question in private.. I tacked it on at the end. Please, don't answer.
Dan
Caldis:
I can help out with links to AP threads that I think match what you are looking for. These three threads pretty much turned into conversations between Ron and the initial poster so I'd suggest you skip posts from other posters if the amount of reading starts to bog you down.
The first is a discussion between Settimbrini and Ron about GNS and the big model http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=21684.0
The second is a discussion between Levi Kornelson and Ron again regarding GNS and again the whole of the big model is at least touched on http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=20679.0
The third is between Ron and David Berg along the same lines http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=22017.0
Those three are some of the best at considering specific AP examples in terms of the big model. The all seem to fit what I see as your goal in the discussion, they talk about the structures of the game and what makes them work and fit the terms of the big model. It's also interesting to note that none of the participants seemed to actively recognize the creative agenda they persued in play, it was something that was happening unconciously at the table. Hidden assumptions that the groups took for granted that made their games work.
I'll give you one more like Ron's D&D threads this is the last of the three it has links back to the previous two (although I think the link to the first one is broken, you should be able to track back to the first thread from the second it has a working link) http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=19889.0
What I found most interesting about this example and how it relates back to the other three is that while Ron is aware of the CA he is persuing he doesnt make any overt actions to bring it about. The game doesnt become narrativist because he works hard to throw themes or a premise into the game it happens more naturally as a result of the players creating characters that are willing to have a point of view and Ron bringing about situations where they had to take a stand and they could choose what stand they would take.
Ron Edwards:
All right, stop.
Caldis, those are excellent and appropriate links. Thank you, and I'll include them in a sticky when I can get around to it.
Dan - you are not paying attention. This isn't a debate. I am telling you exactly how to get what you're looking for, based on moderating nine years of solid discussion of this very topic. Report about your own actual play, which is nothing more nor less than the requirements of this forum, or this thread is closed. I'd prefer that not to happen, but it is up to you.
Also, the link-hunt request was not directed to you. Caldis and others know what I'm looking for, which a search or uninformed thread-hunt will not yield.
Everyone else, stop posting until this proceeds.
Best, Ron
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