[3:16] the betrayal of planet Girlfriend
Tomas HVM:
Quote from: Paul Czege on December 17, 2008, 06:07:09 PM
So I went into the game expecting to rely on everyone else's character immersion to inspire my own efforts.
And they didn't.
In my view the key to understanding your failure lies in this, Paul. You went into a GM-driven game as a GM expecting the players to be the motor of the game. It may be due to some misunderstood idea of "leaving the field to the players". The idea is sound enough in itself, but it depends heavily on "a field" to be created. In this kind of game "the field" has to be created by you; the GM.
So your attitude was flawed. Still: when the game turned sour you still could have salvaged it. You desrcibe the players as joking and being not-serious. That is fine! As a GM you may tap into their mode of play, and turn it. To "tap into it" may be done by making jokes yourself, preferrably with in-game characters. Use the NPC's to cater for jokes in-game, and soon you will have the players joking their heads off in-character.
- And then you introduce a high-strung non-joking officer, who goes off about their jokes being detrimental to morale, and gives them a lecture about the seriousness of the business of slaughtering aliens. "We are here to save mankind, not to make silly jokes!!!"
- After this lecture you shift back to the joking NPC again, and ally yourself with the players in vilifying the officer who don't understand the joke, or the harsh reality that makes such jokes necessary. "What the fuck does he expect of us? To cry for the motherfucking aliens? We make jokes cause that's the only way to survive this shit!!!"
- By this time you should see the players being fully immersed in the game with you, and from there on you may open the field for whatever they comes up with, or whatever comes to your mind.
Hope this helps you understand why it went wrong, and how the game may have been salvaged. Any slackness in attitude of the GM will endanger any GM-driven game.
Ron Edwards:
Hello,
I am skeptical of much of the advice offered in the past page of posts. The funny thing is, I agree with all of it. But at best it's speculative, and given Paul's account of what he did do in play, I'm reading it as "what you did, just more of it." I'm not sure how any mission situation, for instance, could have emphasized the relevant buy-in more than the three-eyed ape baby scene. And in my experience of the game, players engaged immediately, with full commitment to the various nuances of satire, adventure, competition, and more, with much less introductory material than he provided pre-mission.
I think one variable's getting missed: for its most obvious expression, how people respond to the phrase "kill-happy machismo" as on the back cover. The interior text even says to read that to the players and they'll get how to play. This may be an American/European thing, or maybe not, but to some readers, that phrase cannot be anything except critical of the military, dubious at most of any interventionist military mission, and aware of the weird blend of complicity and victimization of the soldiers themselves. Whereas to others, it means ... well, kill-happy machismo. Clearing the gooks from the hamlet, and making sure the grandmother gets a couple in the belly so she can't blow up Bob from Kankakee with her concealed hand-grenade. Kicking some ass so the world can see. Teaching the sand-niggers a lesson they'll never forget, because they were too stupid to take the hint last time. Yes, that ugly. That stupid. That literal.
One possible angle of discussion would concern Full Metal Jacket and Paul's friends from his earlier gaming days, but I fear that will become too focused on the film and fandom of the film, rather than on this game, so I log it here for follow-up later, maybe.
I want to stress that I'm not talking about soldiers as players; in fact, based on several Forge members' accounts of role-playing in-country, their games tend to be very strong on the kind of satirical, gonzo-but-bitter content that we're favoring in this thread, and which I'll bluntly say 3:16 is about. I'm talking about a non-military but military-excited mind-set.
My take on Paul's play-experience, keeping in mind I wasn't there and am only going by this thread's content, is that he did learn important lessons as he summarized himself, above, and needs no further advice. No first-play effort is perfect in my experience. My take is also that no further advice will be meaningful, especially when phrased in terms of a guarantee as Tomas did, because to a certain set of players (neither demographic nor subcultural; this is political in a sense long lost to the common use of that word), when you play military guys with big guns, you're there to shoot the enemy terrorists communists enemy gooks.
In those circumstances, I don't know what could possibly be done, and whatever could, it'd have to be at the outset of and introduction to play. I don't think correction could occur via in-play material at all.
Best, Ron
Gregor Hutton:
Thanks to Paul for the thread and taking the time over the game. I've read the posts and nodded along, and it's given me food for thought too. Anyway, I've been noodling on this over the weekend and I don't have anything to add that isn't covered, more succinctly, by Ron's post above.
As an explanation of the "buy-in" for myself -- I specifically wrote the book and made it look the way it does to excite the gamers I used to play 2300AD with back in the day. I reached back in my mind to what made those games exciting/interesting for them/me.
I'd hoped that the book, if I could do it right, will turn people way on to it (woohaaa!), or turn them way off (OK, that's not for me!). So, maybe just letting people absorb some of the feel of the book might help?
If you give it another go I'd be delighted to hear how it goes (good or bad) and any thoughts that you have based on your experience (not mine or anyone else's) of the game. That would be much appreciated.
Cheers,
Gregor
Tomas HVM:
I disagree with Ron, heartily! The advice you have gotten here, Paul, is yours to sift through and/or test. Good luck in your next carnage amongst the stars!
Ron Edwards:
Tomas,
Please try to communicate rather than announce when you post here. I do not say this in order to argue with you but so I can gain insight from what you say.
I cannot understand your post. It's especially confusing because I stated in my post that I agree with all the advice given so far. To disagree with that means arguing against what you said yourself. Alternately, I provided an additional variable. Is that what you disagree with? To claim that the reflexive literal reading doesn't occur, is hard to credit.
Gregor, have you run into this issue in actual play? If so, what did you do?
Best, Ron
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