Low-Prep/No-Prep Play
Lance D. Allen:
Hm. We're wandering a little bit into another topic, but I think it might be fruitful to go there, so let's see.
You are working under an assumption that is different from my own.. and that is that the prepared content has some reality of its own. It really doesn't, though. Until it appears in play, it doesn't exist. If I, as the GM, am the sole arbiter of what happens if you go through the mines, or if you go over the mountain, then when you get to your destination is still 100% within my control. To think otherwise simply because I've got reams of notes where I've prepared possible encounters if you follow this route or that is deceiving yourself.
To keep to your LotR example, what say I decide that when you go through the Mines of Moria that the Cave Troll encounter will take too long, and I'm really looking forward to the encounter with the elves on the other side. So, you go through the Mines, and fight a few piddly goblins. I'd planned for a Cave Troll, but in the moment, I decided against it. What happens in this circumstance isn't any more or less under my control than if I'd not done a jot of preparation, and was winging it. Nothing exists in the game until it happens at the table.
Now, sure. I'm less likely to ditch the Cave Troll encounter if I've prepped it, but it's still entirely my choice.
So, next question: Unless you as the player notice, does it even matter? If you maintain the illusion that what's in the caves exists before you get there, does it matter if I'm making it up, or if I've planned it all along? (Note that the key here is whether or not you notice; If I wing it and it's obvious that I'm pulling it outta my ass, it can definitely make a difference. That's not what I'm talking about.)
Here's another thought: I present the option for you to go over the mountains or through the mines.. And you decide to go back down the mountain and find another route. Here's where the possibility of railroading comes in. I can tell you, "Nope, the way back is blocked. These are your only choices." This option sucks, in my opinion. The only other option is to let you do what you want to, and improvise. Maybe you find another cave, and I can reuse the cave troll.. But if it's established that the new caves are currently the holdings of a thriving dwarven community, I may not have that option. I may simply have to pull it out of nowhere. So, what now? How do I know how much longer it should take you to get to Doom? You're completely off the beaten path my friend, in trackless wastes!
Now, okay, sure. Most established fantasy settings and games have pacing mechanics built into their physical geography and traveling rules.. But that doesn't actually have anything to do with the story. You can cross 1000 miles in a single session, or spend three sessions fighting to get through a single mountain range, and both ways have potential to be equally interesting.
What if, once more, you decide that the world can burn. You toss the ring into a river, and decide you're going to go be adventuring hobbits, join a mercenary band and fight in wars. Some other hapless hero can take the ring to Doom, or it can fall into the hands of the evil overlord, and you'll find yourself rallying the remnants of humanity to fight an epic, losing battle against overwhelming odds. Sauron is back, leading his army, and you and your plucky hobbit friends are leading the civilized races of Middle Earth against him? Fuck, now that sounds cool!
Basically, my point is this: If you're not overly invested in what happens because you didn't spend hours of prep that will go to waste if you let the players grab the story reins and run, then amazing, unexpected things can happen.
Callan S.:
Now Lance, gsoylents original example refered to something that does exist. The alien tokens. These are physical objects at the table (okay, perhaps pencil marks on a scrap of paper, but still very real). There are only so many of them physically present - when all are gone, that's it.
I think gsoylent's map reference is again to something real - a drawn map. I can see what you mean by the GM's in control, but at the same time when your one hex away from leaving the misty mountains, it is not the same as the GM entirely deciding when your done with MM. A drawn map is sort of a watered down version of the alien tokens - I think it has holes that you rightly identified, but I think that's looking past what he was getting at - the physical tokens (And gsoylent, correct me if I'm wrong...though can we get a real name to work with? If you've said it in the past and I've forgotten, I'm sorry! Please say it again :( )
I seem to have a similar need to gsoylent. And he made me realise one reason why I feel iffy about on the fly prepping - it doesn't go anywhere (unless you also on the fly prep it going somewhere).
Now as you ask, Lance, does it have to go somewhere? I would say no - this is a play preference I have and I think gsoylent has as well (what do you think, g?). BUT I wouldn't just call it a preference, like I wouldn't call breathing a 'preference' for myself. It's something I HAVE to do. As in, yes it does very much have to go somewhere - progression is a preference for the basic story structure of begining, middle and end. Those alien tokens set that up rather simply, by a basic mechanical countdown to an end.
So while progress might be a 'preference', I would ask, how the heck do you play without breathing?? :p In the other thread I totally dug your focus on plays center being about unearthing player feelings on events. You've advocated the exploration of the groups feelings and thoughts, but now your also advocating what is to me, not breathing! I'm boggled! What's even more confusing is that from gsoylents account, it sounds like the games alien token system means players of the game 'breath'/engage a progression mechanic, even as you ask 'do you have to breath?/do you have to have progression?'. Whether you have to, you actually did engage in a progression mechanic, and enjoyed the game. That enjoyment may have been connected - that's a hard question, though.
gsoylent:
I am comfortable with the notion that nothing is "real" until it comes into playand I don't think the GM should religiously stick to his prep notes because they are "real" to the GM. What I am saying is that a largely improvised framework has it's problems too in that it reduces the player's ability to make good or bad choices with regards to progressing the plot unless like 3:16 or InSpecters you have some other mechanism measure the party's progress.
If you've prepped an ambush on the road, and the players decide to go by boat, if you move the ambush to the river, you've pretty much negated the player's choice of going by river. Of course if you stick to your notes and you don't move the encounter, the players miss out on fun content. Sort of damned if you do,damned if you don't.
I agree perception plays a big part in all this. If the players do not notice it won't matter to them. That is not really an option for me. For whatever reason, possably because we are all experienced GMs, we do notice or at the very least we aware that this part of the GM toolset.
But even so, I am suspiscious of a model of gaming in which the GM is working one set of assumptions "the pacing of the adventure is driven by what I deem dramatic appropriate" and players working on a different set "the pace of the adventures is driven my character's actions and choices".
manatic:
Like gsoylent, my group has a collection of experienced players & GMs. For one reason or another, we're not really fond of games with no apparent direction, and we're fairly apt at noticing when the GM is simply making the story up as he goes (we actually used to have a nasty habit of calling the GM on this and intentionally poking holes in the logic of the game, sheesh). Perhaps in some way it makes the game feel trivial, since we're not really solving problems and overcoming challenges in the story. Maybe it's about the idea that the game has to be played with the same rules by everyone, the GM included.
As an actual play example, in a recent game of 3:16 my players questioned the use of several damage-causing NFA tests in the form of traps etc. Their core argument was that I could pretty much throw any number of such tests at them to wear them down or possibly even kill off their characters. In a game where progress is monitored using something very concrete (the threat tokens), it seemed unfair to them to be completely at the mercy of GM discretion.
Re: prepped material having a reality of their own. I agree that nothing is real before it is brought into the game. Even so, having some sort of coherent and logical big picture helps the GM keep the improvised story coherent. I've been running improvised games a lot, and I still make the occasional bad call which then proceeds to wreck some future element of the story.
Now Lance, when you said "If you're not overly invested in what happens because you didn't spend hours of prep that will go to waste if you let the players grab the story reins and run, then amazing, unexpected things can happen." I'm quite interested in where this leaves the GM. Is there any need for him anyway? The players will probably realize that you don't have an entire sandbox world prepped for them to play in. So, if the GM is improvising anyway, then what need is there for a GM, apart from the traditional need for a gaming group to have a GM? The GM can't be the somewhat objective describer of reality, since no reality exists. In my view this would lead to completely shared narrative, which of course is not a bad thing, but if we go there, we're delving into the core of roleplaying and narration and I don't know if that's what this discussion is - or should be - about.
Lance D. Allen:
::rubs hands together:: A'right. Three at once. Let's see if I can handle this without completely losing my thread of thoughts.
Callan,
You seem to have misunderstood me. You claim I asked "Does it have to go somewhere?" Which isn't quite what I asked. What I asked is "Does it have to go somewhere that has already been planned?"
Progress as a necessity for any worthwhile story is a given, for me. Moving forward, accomplishing tasks, defeating foes, covering ground, all staples of a good adventure story.
The tokens in 3:16 don't mean anything must be pre-created. They place mechanical boundaries on a scenario, that is all. So you get to move forward and have that tangible, visible indicator of progress without having an end-game in mind. You can be given the mission to destroy the alien capitol and deplete your tokens that way, or you can go off the reservation and attack an industrial plant instead. That is what I'm getting at. Progress = Good. Pre-planned Progress = Not So Good.
G (you mind if I call you G?),
I posit that damned if you do, damned if you don't isn't true. Making player choice matter is definitely important, IMO, though traditional gaming texts give tons of advice for how to get your players back on track, or keep them on the same track. This advice is called by various names these days, railroading, illusionism, participationism. Whatever. All of it comes down to negation of player choice. Another option is simply to do your best to make it interesting, no matter what they choose. The impact of their choice should never come down to "Well, you chose to go the way that negated the interesting stuff. Sorry.) You absolutely cannot do this by pre-planning. There will always be a possibility you didn't account for.
Urk. Rambling. Let's try to get this back on track by addressing a specific line. "What I am saying is that a largely improvised framework has it's problems too in that it reduces the player's ability to make good or bad choices with regards to progressing the plot" If by plot you mean GM's pre-written story, then it complete negates the player's ability to advance the plot, because there isn't one. But if you mean plot as the ongoing narrative of the player's characters, then it absolutely does not. Anything the players choose to do is an important choice in the story of their characters (within reason; if they choose to have the mutton instead of the beef, that's probably not important).
Mikko,
No-prep doesn't mean no direction, especially in games which work well with no-prep. Direction is often purpose-built into the game. In 3:16, you kill bugs, and you deal with the military machine. In InSpectres, you get hired to deal with supernatural threats. In Dogs in the Vineyard (low-prep rather than no-prep) you come to a town, and pass judgement upon whatever sins you find there. And you deliver mail. In ReCoil, you track down threats to reality, and destroy them.
It's also not entirely the GM's job to make up the story. The entire group shares that role. The players' actions matter. They make decisions, you present consequences and obstacles based on those decisions. They make more decisions. It's an organic thing.
(Aside: Your 3:16 example is one I completely understand. There are specific rules about when you can recover from harm, and they deal with the built in pacing mechanic; My ruling after going through a similar situation in which one of my player characters actually *died* as a result of NFA actions, is that NFA actions outside of combat give bonuses and penalties, but do not cause kills)
Re: wrecking future elements of the story. This is only possible if that future element exists. Which it doesn't. What it does is wreck the plan you've got. If you decide that your plans take second fiddle to what actually happens in play, that becomes a pretty unimportant thing.
Re: What need is there for a GM? ::grins:: Absolutely none, at least as far as gaming as an activity is concerned. My most recent game design, part of a collaborative effort for a contest over on Story Games, has no GM at all. Several other successful games also have no GM. But that's going completely outside the bounds of this discussion. What need? Because we like GM'd play, pure and simple. Because it's absolutely necessary for the type of play you're advocating. Because it's equally vital for the type of play I'm advocating. Lemme 'splain.
When the GM is no longer the sole authority on the story, he finds himself in a much more challenging role. It's more difficult (and in my opinion more rewarding) to have to roll with the punches. My most ambitious RPG design project places the GM into a purely reactionary role in terms of the story (he still acts as the rules authority and arbiter for the game play) where his job is to take the goals set by the players, and create the obstacles for them to overcome in pursuit of those goals. He never sits down and decides what course the story is going to take. The extent of his session prep is to examine what happened before, and to look at existing player goals, then decide which ones to highlight for this session, and consider rough ideas for what stands in the way of the player accomplishing their goal. Many of those obstacles will be inherent in the goal.. For instance, if the goal is to defeat someone, then obviously that person is an obstacle. In this way, the GM is merely a participant in the creation of the story. He's an important participant, as he does everything that the players do not, leaving them free to play their characters and make decisions for their characters without having to make decisions for other aspects of the situation, which they must do in GMless play.
I think we're all getting a little muddled. I would request that each of us clearly state the position he's arguing.
I am arguing this: Low-Prep/No-Prep play is a completely valid and valuable form of play that can, and frequently does, result in play that is as deep as heavily prepped play. I am also arguing that it has the potential to result in even deeper play than heavily prepped play.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page