Is actual RP in MMORPGs another next impossible thing?
Patrice:
Wolfen, you may have found difficult to get what the thread was about until my late clarification because of the method I'm using. I'm using speculative logics here. Just a word upon that: I'm not beginning with a statement nor an assumption but with some kind of open-ended question. I'm genuinely wondering from the start, in order to see where it leads. It's just a research method as valid as another. I have no idea of where it leads, and shall not, but I expect it to move on and carry a greater meaning as we delve in the question. The matter evolves from question to question, eventually leading to the core underlying questions. I have sometimes coined it as the Columbo method when I'm using it and already know where it leads, it's like pretending being stupid but it's not what I'm doing here hopefully.
Now to the topic! Okay I've got into another terminology mistake. It's not Zilchplay then, thanks for clarifying. Zilchplay would be barely giving color to in-game events and there's much, much more than this involved. Yet, it's free-form exploration since there's no roleplay rule set nor real system (I've checked the forge-coined meaning of Exploration, guys, you won't catch me on this one).
I totally agree, Wolfen, upon the whole idea of not getting into the definition of what roleplay is, it's not the topic here. I'd rather get back to its prerequisites, imho: A Shared Imagined Space and a Social Contract. I state that there's no RPG if you don't have both. At least the way we understand the RPG in P&PRPGs. I'm not, at the moment, equating rules and system (I would but I even don't need here) with SIS nor Social Contract and I take in your Monopoly example.
When I look at your actual play examples, Wolfen, I see that they tremendously back my discoveries so far: Your report of actual play, an actual play you consider important enough and worthy to be remembered is a report of your characters adressing their Premises (I've checked this one too, hehe). On the other hand, what I read when I read Callan saying "this game is unable to control the host", I read a synonym sentence to "this game doesn't rely upon a SIS", or at least, "the SIS is disconnected from the game system and content". Thus my parasite definition. Of course, the host is out of the parasite reach and bounds. Yes, we have new experiences, mostly being community managers taking the consequences of social play into account. Isn't it in itself, Wolfen, a proof that there is no SIS altogether in the game itself? Should there be a SIS, there would be no need for community managers (please, no getting into the community managers are like game masters, they're not). The community managers are not players, they're thwarting the game to take the Sharing fact into account. I think what you might want to stress upon is the taking into account of the social aspect of the game, but it's a wider question than just roleplaying. Another thing, Callan, is you maybe want to talk about the unlimited ability to generate user-generated content you find in P&PRPGs (see Rafu's remarks upon that, with the Forgotten Realms example). I'm not sure about that underlining your ideas, let us know.
So, the users have designed their own private SIS within a system that doesn't provide any but a Virtual space. In order to "roleplay", they have to give themselves a motive to do it and get fun from it. I state that the game (please challenge this) provides its own Simulation (though not Shared) and Gaming mechanics and thus that the only field left to conquer within for would-be roleplayers is Narrativism. No wonder all the examples we have is examples of characters adressing their Premises.
So I think (if you accept the whole lot of assumptions allowing it) that the question is now pending about the presence or the lack of a Creative Agenda in the parasite game. I'm confident in your ability to hunt down my contradictions but I'd be happy, though, if someone more qualified than me would give us his or her views upon this.
So: Does the roleplaying game happening within the MMO confines have a Creative Agenda?
Lance D. Allen:
I don't think I realized this was a question.
When I talked about right to dream and addressing premise, what I was talking about was Simulationism and Narrativism without the loaded words. I don't think there's much if any Gamist roleplay in MMORPGs, as the pure game portion of the game satisfies that need. There may be some, what with political maneuvering and all, but mostly people roleplay because they want something more than Step on Up.
So, yes, absolutely there is Creative Agenda in MMORPG roleplay.
Also, I mostly concede your point that Community Managers aren't players (at least when in the role of CM) but I find myself wondering; What about cases where they're not circumventing the mechanical portion of the game? In UO, back before some silly threatened lawsuit, they had a volunteer program where selected volunteers would be responsible for creating stories within the fiction. To help with this, these volunteers (called Seers) would be given the power to create and control things within the game. They could create a troll, and step into its role, or put another type of volunteer (called a troubadour) into it. They could create monsters, and treasure. This was a feature of the game early on. It was something created by the game designers and put into place, so I would call it part of the system, not "thwarting" the game, as you said.
Also, when you say that there's no SIS, I assume you mean game-spanning SIS? Because there is without a doubt an SIS within the roleplaying communities, some of which can be moderately large, though obviously not game-spanning.
(note: this system was trashcanned because a volunteer in the program complained and said that he should be allowed to play for free, or get paid, to do the volunteer work he was doing. When he mentioned legal recourse, they preemptively pulled the program)
Callan S.:
Quote from: Patrice on January 05, 2009, 08:06:29 AM
I state that the game (please challenge this) provides its own Simulation (though not Shared) and Gaming mechanics and thus that the only field left to conquer within for would-be roleplayers is Narrativism. No wonder all the examples we have is examples of characters adressing their Premises.
Hmm, okay, you might have a point about where the mechanics of the game make you end up at. Once in WOW when in a group about to do a dungeon, I said my character was being pressured by a bad guy to do the dungeon, but if he fell during it (ha, no one ever dies in a mmorpg), he wouldn't be strong enough to get back to town and see his girl, and she'd ditch him. It made the dungeon alot more scary and evocative (almost dying was scary - it wasn't a matter of 'oh, almost died and would need to get armour repair').
However, it was 'story before', as I'd decided all of this before the game play event (or even booting up my computer), for the practical reason of fitting it into the mmorpg's mechanical framework. I can't remember if the term 'narrativism' only covers 'story now', or if it covers 'story before' as well.
Also at the end the dwarf healer said he would help me back to town (we'd TPK'ed/wiped at some point, of course). I was kind of bugged by this, because you know, I'd fell - the terms were, I was boned! All the trepidation I'd felt inside would be a lie if afterward we could just ignore the rule and skip merrily back to my characters GF. And it bugged me I had to respond in character to work around that, too. Or maybe he understood that (unlikely, though) but was just talking in character...I wouldn't know, couldn't see his face to tell/get a hint.
Overall I think you have a point on where the mmorpg mechanics head you toward, that may be possible to prove.
Quote
So: Does the roleplaying game happening within the MMO confines have a Creative Agenda?
Do you mean the whole mmo? Nay, of course not - just because a mmorpg likes to call itself a single game, doesn't mean it is. It's the same as a convention hall, where many, many seperate games are being run under the one roof. Does gen con have a creative agenda? As in a single, overall creative agenda? Nah. Also, replace creative agenda with SIS and you can say the same thing.
Callan S.:
Quote from: Wolfen on January 05, 2009, 12:02:23 AM
In D&D, it's more of a symbiotic relationship between strict rules interactions and roleplay. You could play what amounts to a miniatures wargame with none of what we call roleplaying by using the rules by themselves. You can also roleplay without ever dipping into the mechanics of the game.
I would actually call the latter a parasitic relationship, and the parasite has killed the host - those rules are no longer alive/being implemented.
I will note though, I think the game system itself can also be parasitic, not just players. For example, that wargaming example? When do enemies appear? At what strength? Upon what ground? In what position? In what light? Oh the players decide, and decide, and decide - the game foists this labour onto the players - they do the games work for it. It's being parasitic. Though many gamers actually love deciding over and over...instead of a parasite, its more like a baby to them. Which is a good analogy - there was a TV program awhile back which showed how a baby in the womb is essentially a parasite, stripping resources from it's mother...and even so, don't we love babies? Of course! So I can understand some people taking parasite RPG's into their loving arms, even as it latches its fangs into their necks. Well, that's what it feels like to me with games where to play at all you have to do X amount of this crap - ugh!
Indeed, I would say both group and game can BOTH be parasitic, and its a question of which one will be the biggest parasite on the other. While the newer indie RPG's may be more symbiotic. Ie, the rules, ALL of them, pay off when used, so it pays off to keep using all of them. And by using all of them, the game is kept alive, instead of sucked dry of its blood until the group stands around its husk, declaring they haven't rolled dice all night!
Patrice:
I think we should, for clarity's sake, establish firm distinctions here, because we're actually talking about two different issues and I'm a bit concerned about us mixing things.
1. The MMORPG itself. There is no Shared Imagined Space here, but a Virtual space provided by its content designers. There is no Social Contract either, apart from the very basic end-user agreement you have to sign in order to play. So, there's no roleplaying gaming as roleplaying would be defined in P&PRPGs.
2. The roleplaying actually happening within the roleplayer communities (whether tagged as such or or) of MMORPGs. Its tendency is to shape a Shared Imagined Space, but this space cannot be shared with the users at large nor with the game designers whose job is to define the content. The sharing thus happens in a limited social community among other users. This is why I defined it as a parasite game, because it develops in spite of its host, the MMORPG. There is a Social Contract embryo, but it's mostly an unwritten customary common law. So it seems that we have the seeds an an actual RPG as P&PRPGs would define it. I state that, since the MMORPG itself provides the Gaming, both Challenge and Step On Up and replaces the Simulation with its Virtual space, the only kind of RPG that could develop and last upon this ground would be Narrativist, and actual play examples provided so far do back my statement.
A few questions are however pending:
A. The parasite-host relationship is adressed by Callan stating that this is also the case in P&PRPGs. After much thinking about it, I've come to the conclusion that no, it's not the case in P&PRPGs. Why? Because a P&PRPG is designed to be allowing you to build your own SIS, you could say it's a SIS-building kit. The fact that every game table would develop its own SIS within the game is the main purpose of the game! There's no actual taking over the host here because you've never been a parasite in the first place. Will you challenge that?
B. In a P&PRPG, as Rafu clarified it, the game content is yours only, it is not designed externally, though many sources, from the industry or not, could help you to design it. A P&PRPG allows you to generate limitless user-generated content. This isn't the case in MMORPGs, despite the genuine efforts of the community managers Wolfen told us about. You can't change the world, you can't change the game. OK, you could design Nerverwinter Nights 2 mods and cast them online. And soon you'll be able to design D&D4 adventures and throw them upon the D&D Insider. Is that the same thing? Let's put it another way: Does the ability/inability to generate freely user content in a game has a relation to the game genuinely being or not being a RPG (still as P&PRPGs would handle the definition)?
C. What's the Creative Agenda of the parasite game in a MMORPG? Is it as I state it, a Narrativist game?
D. Are we not too optimistic with the whole SIS issue? Is a SIS that isn't shared by everyone still a SIS? It seems to me that we didn't really answer this. The same question goes for the Social Contract, it's an unwritten customary whatnot. Is that enough to define this game as a game?
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