Is actual RP in MMORPGs another next impossible thing?
Patrice:
Well, since the very thread now seems to be hanging upon definitions I'll have to sort this one way or another. Then *coughs* sorry for being such a nerd here but I'm a bit tired of arguing over and over about established things sooooo here are the definitions in the Big Model:
[Social Contract [Exploration]]. Exploration means "shared imaginings." The sharing has to be explicit and agreed upon, usually through the spoken word although any form of communication counts. The imaginings have to be the subject that is shared, which is why me reading aloud to my wife does not constitute Exploration. We are independently imagining based on the spoken word, but neither she nor I is telling the other what we imagine from that point. Exploration means that such communication is occurring.
Upon Story Now:
Story Now requires that at least one engaging issue or problematic feature of human existence be addressed in the process of role-playing. "Address" means:
• Establishing the issue's Explorative expressions in the game-world, "fixing" them into imaginary place.
• Developing the issue as a source of continued conflict, perhaps changing any number of things about it, such as which side is being taken by a given character, or providing more depth to why the antagonistic side of the issue exists at all.
• Resolving the issue through the decisions of the players of the protagonists, as well as various features and constraints of the circumstances.
And
Jesse: Now we come to a point of personal confusion. Pastiche. I still don't get it, in any medium. If the Situation involves "...class conflict, people being trapped by their social position, repressed romance..." and the GM lets the players resolve it anyway they like, then how is that not Narrativist?
Ron: It is Narrativist. What you're describing is not pastiche, or more clearly, it typically does not produce pastiche. The key is the "resolve it any way they like" part.
I'll try to keep it short then. There are two issues: the MMO and the RP game happening within. In the MMO itself, there's no Exploration. If Exploration is involved, it's in the RP game happening within that it is involved. Then, and it's the second issue, the Exploration happening within the MMO is doomed from the start because it's Sim that will never change the MMO itself, its universe, that's why, if it goes on, it does despite the MMO. When this RP game goes on despite the MMO its only option is to become Narrativist. Why? Because the Exploration happening then MUST happen the way the players like, anyway the players like, basing upon their own issues instead of the game content's one.
That's my whole sort of demonstration about MMOs and P&PRPGs. I don't want this thread to turn in a game of throwing "you confuse the terms" at each other's face, so that's why I brought the definitions in. Maybe this is the root of what I think is a misunderstanding because if you simply read, just read what Exploration is about, you can't possibly say that a MMO is Exploration in itself nor that it does involve it. Actually, it's almost the contrary of what Exploration is about. And yes, Caldis, using Exploration does well better than using SIS, even though the reasoning stands for the SIS as well, if only upon slightly different grounds.
Lance D. Allen:
I'm not sure where you're going with the whole point of RP not changing the MMO. RP in TT gaming doesn't change the rules of the game, either. It doesn't have to. There's absolutely nothing doomed about it, because that is the case in all games. You can imagine anything you want in any game, and it has no effect on the text of the game you're playing. I don't think RP necessarily happens despite the MMO, because a lot of times the in-game events inform and affect the roleplay. Sometimes, the RP happens because of the MMO. It would be true to say the reverse though.. The MMO goes on despite the RP.
Also, the transition from Sim to Nar isn't by any means inevitable. I'd actually say it's rare; The exception rather than the norm. The important part about Nar is the issue. Often, there is no issue, and people don't want to explore an issue. They want to explore a situation, which, done in earnest, can entertain far longer than simply playing a game.
But you're right. Exploration in the roleplaying sense does not happen in MMOs without RP. You can explore the game world, but that's an entirely different sort of exploration.
Callan S.:
Quote from: Patrice on January 21, 2009, 09:23:19 AM
I'll try to keep it short then. There are two issues: the MMO and the RP game happening within. In the MMO itself, there's no Exploration. If Exploration is involved, it's in the RP game happening within that it is involved. Then, and it's the second issue, the Exploration happening within the MMO is doomed from the start because it's Sim that will never change the MMO itself, its universe, that's why, if it goes on, it does despite the MMO. When this RP game goes on despite the MMO its only option is to become Narrativist. Why? Because the Exploration happening then MUST happen the way the players like, anyway the players like, basing upon their own issues instead of the game content's one.
I think that's an interesting hypothesis.
What I'd say, somewhat in support of it, is that although the only real option for explorative play to become narrativist, the players have to actually realise it instead of staying fixated on the games mechanics. And will they realise it? And will they realise it all at the same time?
I'd refer you to RPG.nets computer games forum, where post after post about wow (and there are many) fixate heavily on DPS (damage per second), armour points, is mutilate/whatever power nerfed and 'theory craft', on and on. Indeed, I think theory crafting probably is simulationist exploration (particularly the 'theory craft', given that most bosses have a youtube tutorial in about a week, it isn't needed), but at a stark, almost entirely pure numbers level. But it's basically the only exploration they can find in the game, so they seem to latch onto it fiercely, even though it's not much more than spreadsheet manipulation. Worse, actually fixating on exploring these numbers does pay off in little boosts (but which are frankly not needed to achieve goals - they just speed it up, which isn't important to the long term mmorpg player 'because playing for long periods is fun!'), so this number fixation has a system reward*.
BUT at the same time its as bland as hell, while a bit of soap opera style play is far more thrilling and oomphy, right here, right now!
ALSO I'd say the desire for narrativism is very natural in humans. I don't know about Lances statement that sim to nar is rare, but the desire for nar is quite common in people.
But they'd have to realise this. And they need other people to have realised it at around the same time (I wonder how many realised it alone, had no one to play with, so slipped back into spreadsheetdom?).
And not all narrativist play is compatable with all nar play - some of it clashes. But I'll grant, people probably identify kindred intent and work something out between them, for the overall narrish good.
I think your hypothesis is interesting - I think there is a strong potentiality for narrativism to pop up (probably much like it did in early TT games, like champions or what have you). But I don't think play heads towards narratavism - it just develops a strong potential for it to suddenly crop up**. But at the same time, the spreadsheet exploration catches many in its net. How does that sound?
* And I have to wonder if any of them self reflect on what they came to the game originally for...for the rich and amazing game world? Then why are you fucking around with numbers these days? Why didn't they go play in spreadsheet world? Why, because they're not actually interested in numbers, they just fixate on numbers because their will has been subverted somehow. Seriously, if you had given them all a choice between a richly detailed world and spreadsheet world, they'd all have chosen the rich one. Given that that would have been their will, and now they are playing spreadsheets, one can only think their will has been subverted (in a similar way to a problem gambler).
** But it has a most unfortunate reward loop - they don't get a reward for doing it, rather it's because normal play is so boring, breaking away from it is a pleasure. It's like normally being being hit with a stick, but if you do X activity the stick stops. Sure, it feels good to stop being hit, but it relies on you having to put up with suck to begin with. And if you actually like the stick beating (ooh, yes mistress!), why stop?
Callan S.:
Hi Lance,
Quote from: Wolfen on January 21, 2009, 12:28:51 PM
I'm not sure where you're going with the whole point of RP not changing the MMO. RP in TT gaming doesn't change the rules of the game, either. It doesn't have to. There's absolutely nothing doomed about it, because that is the case in all games. You can imagine anything you want in any game, and it has no effect on the text of the game you're playing.
I think your overlooking that the landscape in a mmorpg literally IS a rule. That tree over there IS a rule (try running through it). That bush IS a rule (try seeing through it). That hill IS a rule. That house...etc, etc. They are all as much rules as rolling to hit is a rule in TT. In TT, the tree isn't a rule, typically, but more of an assertion that appeals to group sympathy.
In table top roleplay, you can go and chop that tree down and you are not ignoring any rules in doing so (typically). In a mmorpg, if you say you have chopped down a tree, your just plain ignoring the rule that is that tree. Your imagined event is parasitic to the game, because you ignore the games rules except where they favour you. And thus in the imagined space, the games rules effect on that imagined space, starts to die off. I sympathise with your roof and clone example - I'd do the same thing, I'd think. But that'd be be parasitic as well - by ignoring the rules of the game, their effective presence in the imagined space starts to die off. If I ignore the roof or clone thing, I benefit, while the rules presence in the SIS suffers/dies off, making my play parasitic.
Quote
The MMO goes on despite the RP
And that would be the mmorpg being parasitic on the player - whatever the player likes to imagine, the mmorpg just takes his subscription and goes on regardless, taking a benefit from someone imagining things (the subscription money they paid in order to imagine) but ignoring the content of that imagination and leaving it to wilt and die off.
Lance D. Allen:
Callan,
I'm reading you, and everything you're saying seems like you're agreeing with me. Then you make the parasitic point, which sounds like you're disagreeing with me.
I'm not sure I see the value in the parasitic thing. Can you unpack this for me? Because I don't really see what bearing it has on.. well, anything. The impact of the rules on the imagined space is always just the developer's vote, and like any vote, it can be over-ridden. (This is true even of a GM's vote in a trad game, though their vote is often upheld by the Social Contract, which usually states that the GM is the final authority)
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