Is actual RP in MMORPGs another next impossible thing?
Callan S.:
I'm saying Patrice's point is supported when you vote via system use itself, rather than voting on whether you use system at all. Take universalis - if someone spends some coins to say your cloned when you die, then your cloned when you die (or you spend coins against that being the case or however universalis works). You don't spend coins on clone death and then after that also decide as a group whether you use system at all to determine if your cloned on death. The only voting that happens is through system use.
I think Patrice is saying that in a mmorpg, if you only vote via system use, basically the only thing you can change is what phat armour and sword your guy carries (and explains why WOW users had orgasms once the patch came in that allowed them to change their characters hair style - something that seems relatively banal). In terms of exploration/change only via system use, it's so restricting it's likely to prompt people to look to other types of fun (like nar) or quit altogether.
Why vote only by system? The same reason you do in universalis - because that is the game. Making up a second voting system to decide whether you use the first system...that probably gets into Patrice's parasite idea, as the second voting system 'feeds' on the first system. But I'm probably over posting now...
gsoylent:
Quote from: Callan S. on January 21, 2009, 01:26:47 PM
Hi Lance,
Quote from: Wolfen on January 21, 2009, 12:28:51 PM
In table top roleplay, you can go and chop that tree down and you are not ignoring any rules in doing so (typically). In a mmorpg, if you say you have chopped down a tree, your just plain ignoring the rule that is that tree.
Actually, in most table top games, the player can't just cut the tree down. Normally the player announces his intention to cut down the tree but it doesn't really happen, doesn't become part of the SIS, until the GM approves it. Depending the GM might just wave it past, might request a skill roll or may even explain why cutting down the tree is not possible ("You can't just cut down a tree in broad day light in the middle of city street, you're going to get yourself arrested.").
What I am getting at is that in both MMO and tabel top roleplaying, you are often reliant on a consensus building process to insert things into the SIS. Obviously table top is more flexible about such things. But that is just a feature of the medium rather than a principle.
gsoylent:
Ah crud, quotes got all messed up.
Callan S.:
Not to mention you were quoting myself, rather than Lance! :)
What do you mean when you say it's a feature of the medium? It's a feature of the medium, whether the rules ask you to form a consensus or not?
Lance D. Allen:
It's a feature of the medium of TTRPGs that what is possible via the game mechanics is more flexible, because it doesn't require the developers to write rules for every single thing the players may want to do. They simply put in a rule that allows the GM to make the call (yes, you can cut down the tree), or allows the GM to make new rules based on the existing rules (ask the character to make a "woodcutting" check, when previously there was no skill or trait for woodcutting)
it's a feature of the medium of video games that everything that the player wants to do mechanically must be anticipated by the developers, and code must be written to support it. If this doesn't happen, it cannot occur mechanically.
I'm not overlooking the landscape at all. The landscape, the "physics", the hidden mechanics of effectiveness the fictional content in the setting (color), all of that falls into the system's vote. You can't exactly vote via the system... You can vote to allow the system's contributions into the SIS. When Errant defeats a Clockwork Prince, we vote to allow that action to become "what actually happened".
I don't think you're making this mistake, but I think it bears stating plainly: When I say vote, I don't mean a literal vote. No one has to say "I approve this thing." Most times, the vote is silent acceptance. Only when you vote against a thing does it actually become verbalized.
Also, just to pick a nit, not to start a new line of discussion...
Quote
The only voting that happens is through system use.
In the nicest way possible, I call bullshit. I've never played the game, but I really, really doubt that the same unspoken voting that goes on in any other game is absent from Universalis. I will accept that silence is consent can be considered part of the rules. But what about the frown of disapproval that doesn't warrant a coin, but which may make you alter your narration a bit? What about the suggestions that pop up when you're making a contribution? What about the assumption of genre conventions that may very well override the system? "No, you cannot have a laser. We agreed that this is sword and sorcery before we even started." How about the enthusiastic agreements that encourage you to keep going in a particular vein? I doubt that just because Universalis has a mechanically formalized voting mechanic that these things go away.
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