Is actual RP in MMORPGs another next impossible thing?
Caldis:
What I'm saying is they are all imaginary characters and not real things or real situations. The computer program is acting as a medium of communication, it's different than sitting face to face and talking but there isnt really much different functionally. The players may not be putting much of their own imagination into it but again that is no different that a pen & paper player who focuses on the numbers on their character sheet.
I'm not saying there is no role playing in MMO's I'm saying it's all role playing. On the RP servers on the PVP servers on every server no matter how much effort the player puts into imagining the world socially they are involved in a role playing game and they are sharing imaginary space, exploring whichever term you wish to use. The player talking in character, the griefer out ganking lowbies, they are both role playing. They probably have different creative agendas but they are both still role playing. Which expands the topic somewhat, or at least makes the type of play you've been discussing here only a subset of all mmo role playing.
Patrice:
Let me think about it, Caldis.
What you're saying is that using a computer, the computer providing information, you providing input and the computer providing feedback is the same as communicating among each other. Am I right? The other end of "each other" here being the software.
What you're saying next is that watching the screen is the same as imagining. Am I correct?
From that you conclude that MMORPG play is Exploration in any case.
Tell me if that's what you're saying.
Callan S.:
It's worth remembering that the '3D' mmorpg world you 'see' is actually a 2D image on the flat screen of your monitor - your brain renders it into a three dimensional space in your head. Your brain imagines that for you, automatically. Further what you see are illuminated pixels. Small points of light. They are not characters, they are not trees, they are small points of coloured light. Your brain is imagining these clusters of light are something, as Caldis says, they are not. To quote part of that Exploration definition "We are independently imagining based on the spoken word". The mmorpg is 'reading aloud' to us, but through graphics rather than spoken words. "The sharing has to be explicit and agreed upon, usually through the spoken word although any form of communication counts."
But it's static. I suspect the definitions for upper case 'E' Exploration used so far do not actually include the thing that makes them different from static imagining.
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The imaginings have to be the subject that is shared, which is why me reading aloud to my wife does not constitute Exploration. We are independently imagining based on the spoken word, but neither she nor I is telling the other what we imagine from that point. Exploration means that such communication is occurring.
I don't see how this matters in any way, myself. If someones reading from a book to you, your both imagining the same thing. Why would you need to communicate when it's exactly the same thing in both your heads? It's pointless.
Well, if you were inventing new imaginative material from whole cloth, that would be a reason. I think maybe the definition states the communication as important, and perhaps doesn't get to what might actually be the vital thing (though after the invention of new material, it being communicated would obviously be important). Otherwise the definition of Exploration seems to be static imagining with unneeded communication.
Patrice:
It's vital, critical to Exploration.
If you don't share, tell each other one way or another what you yourself imagine, it's not imo. It's like reading a book, yes, or watching a movie together.
It's very, very interesting actually how this MMORPG issue brings forth issues pertaining to Exploration at large, we take too much the definitions for granted because, from what I'm reading, they're not understood. If we carry on this way we might end up saying almost anything whatsoever and it's not a firm ground to keep on discussing the topic.
I suddenly realize that the whole debate hangs about the definition of Exploration (or SIS for what it matters). I'd like as OP here everyone wishing to keep contributing to this thread to give us a clear grasp of what they understand of the Exploration or SIS definition. I'm not looking for something copied and pasted from the Provisional Glossary or whatever Big Model article, I'd like to hear what you think that means in your own understanding at a personal level.
I dearly hope that this will help us to sort the whole issue here. I'll throw mine in of course. This is sort of my last hope for the thread.
Caldis:
A slight distinction Patrice. You interacting with the computer isnt exploration, you interacting with the computer, someone seeing the results of your actions and then deciding to act based on that is. That's sharing imagined space. What shows up on screen is the equivalent of a gm giving description, which is important but it's not until there is action and events taking place that exploration really begins.
Each person is choosing the actions of an imaginary character, when they run into another character controlled by another person then together they engage in exploration, they decide what to do where to go, what actions to take.
Whether they decide to go kill that thing over there just to gain xp or sit around and chat in character they are roleplaying together.
On your own there is no sharing, you are still imagining but it's not shared.
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