Is actual RP in MMORPGs another next impossible thing?
Patrice:
The reference to D&D is sure cool, it almost got me tangled up. When I was wondering why, I realized that the game mechanics of MMOs, being so close to D&D mechanics for most sellers (life gauge, levelling, etc) makes one confused about their similarity. Yet, the main core aspect or pen and paper RPGs stands about Shared Imaginative System and Social Contract, not in the game mechanics and I think I've proven that MMOs as such don't provide this. I'm eager to be challenged upon this assumption, though. Makes me think that, it's obvious but nevertheless useful to remind, it's not because you have stats, hit points, levels and an experience system that you have a RPG. I eventually decided to challenge the "killing critters is roleplaying" idea. It's not in itself, or everything and nothing is. It might be, yet, but it's not in itself.
I think we might have got into a false debate at some point here, Soylent, because I do agree with most of your remarks indeed. What I state is not that one can't create a SIS within a MMO nor have a Social Contract inside its limitations (ever tried to create a leader-less guild?), what I state is that the MMO in itself does not lay upon a Social Contract nor defines it in any way (except for the basis web etiquette "no sex, no offense, respect your neighbour please". Whether the end-user agreement passed between the user and the game owner is a Social Contract or not is still to be discussed, but I say if it is, it's a very, very, unequal and biased one, quite opposite to the kind of contracts we find in democratic systems) and does not involve a Shared Imaginative or Imagination System. I totally agree with you when you say that one can actually roleplay brilliantly in a MMO, I do (well, I mumble-chat and emote some roleplay at least, dunno for the brilliant part).
Now, we have players, but I would rather say users who, from and by themselves design a Shared Imagination (it's more a shared imagination than a shared imaginative system imho) and define a Social Contract (what is in-character, what is out of character, how and when do we allow it, what does it take to become the Mayor, who decides it, how, etc). How they do it is totally out of the MMO field itself, it's their own game they design, often designing it upon MUD or message boards roleplaying games unwritten traditions. Their roleplaying game within the game is an user-generated content, not a derivate from the MMO, or not only. I remember myself saying a few years ago to my late guildies "okay guys, burn this game, we don't play this, it's just our playground" (whether this is too extreme, absolutely stupid or biased is another question entirely).
So, back to the basis I think I've got a few assumptions here about P&PRPG being defined by a SIS, a Social Contract and allowing full user-generated content. Could anyone back, challenge or extend this?
Caldis:
I've seen some of these things in MMO's but IME they weren't expressions of a creative agenda, they were exploration for it's own sake zilchplay if you are looking for a term.
I'd like to hear some more about one of your experiences that you felt was narrativist. From what I'm seeing from your limited examples so far all I'm seeing is exploration of setting and color, tea parties, masses, even troll empires. You've created elements that you've added to the game, things that dont come from the designers but still just elements of the world. They dont really provide a focus for what the players are doing in the game, there doesnt seem to be an agenda to it.
Patrice:
It's another game actually. My whole point is about that idea. Let's take an example I know well, the Troll Empire (can't help the caps for the glorious Empire of Zul, sorry). We didn't create anything added to the game itself because no user could actually see the Troll Empire nor walk in it, nor interact in no way with it within the game. The Troll Empire existed only within the space of the story we were weaving together. For the roleplayers community within the users community at large, we were an Empire and since this community, basing itself upon its own mostly unwritten Social Contract, acknowledged it as such, it was the case. That's what we pretended, if I may say so. That was our shared imagination and narration, using medias such as the guild chat channel, some extra user-generated chat channels and half a dozen out-of-game message boards. It is zilchplay, I totally agree with this statement, exploration for its own sake, we didn't have any creative agenda nor did the MMO itself have. We extended it, but not in the way you assume we did, we invented a new game within the game, not an extension of the game itself. And since the MMO itself provided its own repetitive unending Simulation, we had to find a way to make it fun and worthy, we had to create Premises for our characters and to adress those Premises during the course of our play. What was our play? Chat lines, threads and social interactions using the MMO game engine, quests, zones, equipment and even instanced play and NPCs. When we would log in, that was the focus of our play. Yet what we had for agenda was close to basic GM-less zilchplay. What will happen next? Who will shoot it? Basing upon what? Does that deny this kind of roleplay the quality of being a narrativist game in itself? I genuinely ask the question, in order to find out the answer because I'm not proficient enough with the Narrativist model myself to provide the answer. Couldn't that be considered as a basic, very basic rather frameless Narrativist game? What's missing in it? Let me know.
It's, sorry to come back to this, another game within the MMO game, feeding on its materials. If this other parasite game is itself denied the P&PRPG basic qualification, then I must conclude that MMORPGs are in no possible way and extend RPGs as P&PRPGs would call them but only zilchplay exploration-allowing media platforms. The Narrativist game qualification is thus critical to the P&PRPG and MMORPG whole relation issue. And to the future of D&D4 and P&PRPG major industry at large (very very lousy joke this last sentence, sorry guys. Or is it?).
Rafu:
I think it is indeed a matter of SIS (Shared Imagined Space).
When roleplaying around a table, one SIS is built, involving all of the players. If not, something's not working.
Even in a system like D&D's, with separate rules for such actions as killing monsters and "leveling up", there still is one rule covering both becoming mayor and graffiti: ask the DM. Once the DM declares you the mayor, or once the DM acknowledges your graffiti, the SIS is permanently changed according to your action. This is, in fact, what "system" is and what "system" is for.
In fact, if you're - say - playing D&D in a Forgotten Realms setting, and a new supplement comes out from Wizards detailing how the kingdom of Cormyr was suddenly overthrown and conquered by the Red Wizards of Thay, such a change is not guaranteed to immediately apply to your own D&D campaign... Despite being a suggestion from the Almighty Makers of the Metaplot, it still has to go through the game system: your DM decides whether, and when, the fall of Cormyr happens in your campaign. Only by DM validation (= system) this suggestion actually happens in the SIS -- meaning that FR metaplot from Wizards carries no more weight than player input in actual play.
A MMORPG does not, by itself, provide a system to shape and interact with a SIS. In fact, no instance of a Shared Imagined Space is at all required to enjoy a MMORPG as a computer game. What the makers of the game do provide is, instead, a Virtual Space, which is made up of the visual and auditive representations the software conveys: a simulated "world" which you can interact with (in a finite number of ways) with no act of "imagining" being actually required.
What "roleplaying" users appear to be doing, in such instances as the "mayor" case, is:
1) wishing for avenues of interaction with the simulated Virtual World which exceed the finite capabilities of the gaming software (simply by not being part of the factory-provided game content); thus
2) "patching" that by initiating a pretend-game between themselves, through whatever means they have at their disposal (mostly social means, including the in-game text chat as well as community tools not being part of the game software itself, such as forums).
As soon as 2 happens, an Imagined Space is created, Shared by a number of players, in which player A actually is "the mayor".
However, as the sheer number of players connected to given a MMORPG server prevents them from all individually communicating with everybody else, unlike a gaming table, there cannot be one SIS involving all of the users. At most, a number of Imagined Spaces can be simultaneously in place, each being Shared by a subset of users, probably with some amount of overlap.
(A phenomenon resembling what would happen in a LARP involving a massive number of players, as commonly seen in Northern Europe. Main reason the "Big Model" can't, as it currently stands, fully apply to LARPing, btw).
Long post, more on this later.
Patrice:
Very helpful clarification, Rafu. Terminology-wise first about Shared Imagined Space, thanks a lot, and very clarifying for the remainder. I think you pretty much wind in the same ideas I've been bringing in except that you do it better, in a much more understandable way.
I'll lay back upon the post to give other people opportunity to answer here because I feel we're reached issues important enough and I'd like you to expand your views, Soylent to answer to that and Callan, Caldis and all other would-be posters to contribute if they wish so. I keep reading and will post further later too, maybe writting shorter posts, sorry 'bout the indigest lengthy previous ones.
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