Is actual RP in MMORPGs another next impossible thing?
FredGarber:
Overall, I'm chiming in on the "possible" side of this discussion: RP is only possible with MMOs if someone else, even part time, is taking the role of audience. "Actual RP" requires feedback, and if I refuse to accept a certain quest for "pure" RP reasons (*), then someone needs to think "ooh, he refused to do that for RP." If I'm the only one who knows why I refused the quest, it's not Actual RP for me (**)
However, I'm going to chime in with an opposite stance from Dan now:
When I RP at a tabletop game, I have to NOT use the fictional world I use in my mind. The fictional world in my mind has all these little details that the fictional worlds in my fellow players' heads might not.
For example:
GM: You kill the orcs, Fred.
Me: Ooh. I take the little yellow scarves that these orcs have to symbolize clan
Janet: Everybody knows orcs denote clans by their stripes and spots. They're goblinoid.
Heather: I was kind of thinking of a tribal scarring thing, actually. What scarves are you talking about?
See, all of us have our own fictionalized image of the orcs our PCs killed, but now there's a conflict over what bits enters the SIS. In fact, a virtual world, by specifying a lot of Color, System, and Setting facilitates my roleplay, by allowing me to better synch with my fellow players.
-Fred
(*) What constitutes a "pure" RP reason is a whole 'nother thread, and I don't want to get into it. Suffice to say, I'm treating it like a choice made in an MMO that has a low or no impact on the computerized mechanics.
(**) I'm willing to concede that if I know I did it, then I'm RPing in a single person adventure, but that's pushing my RP definition. I also don't want to get into RPing a character who has "mysterious reasons" for doing things.
Callan S.:
John, I think its worth noting that if the game designer hard codes in a forest or city, while that removes the ability to roleplay/Explore in terms of that forrest/city and that seems an actual mistake in the examples we gave, it can actually be a feature rather than a bug. Ie, roleplay/Exploration is NOT supposed to happen in terms of whether the forrest or city exists - get yer roleplay/Exploration happening over at X, instead! Quit trying to roleplay whether the forest exists - that's not what this particular roleplay game is about.
I'm thinking yourself and Adam are at opposites and yet thinking the same thing - you both think roleplaying should be able to happen anywhere in a particular RP games presentation.
I think roleplay through a MMORPG might indeed be an impossible thing, if roleplay/Exploration has to happen in every single piece of the games presentation. I think Exploration is facilitated by having things which you do not Explore - they provide a wall to kick off into what is supposed to be Explored.
I'll qualify and say I see the value of any particular RPG (MMO or TT) is that it restricts your imagination. Creative restriction - the restrictions require you to think in new and imaginative ways to get at stuff, and bam, there you go, new and imaginative ways are created! Alot of people see RPG's as allowing them to have an imagination, rather than restricting it. That's why shallowthought's quote from me is "Hands: How to have them and have them attached to your nerves". It's something I said to illustrate that a book that tells you how to have hands is stupid, and the idea of a book tell you how to have an imagination is...can I just say it? Stupid? (for anyone who's had a hand severed, I'm sure it's still stupid - the book can't help them, either. And if you've had your imagination severed, OMFG!).
My point probably only makes sense from a 'restriction' viewpoint, and that'd be another thread to provide evidence for, I guess.
John Adams:
Callan, you and I are on the same page. I wrote:
Quote
The real background stuff must come from the software, else we should be playing via some other medium. If you can't really see that amazing castle on your monitor and walk around in it, what's the point? ... that's where the software developers will really earn their monthly subscription fee: creating the basic software content we use in all of our play. I'm talking about models, bitmaps, skins, sound effects, animations ... all highly reusable stuff. Our job as players is to combine it in fun and creative ways which satisfy our Creative Agenda. They give us the stuff, we figure out what it's for and what it all means.
The friction with current MMOs is they don't help you with that last part. They tell you what it all means and what you're supposed to be doing right now, "here's the quest, now get to it!" That's all well and good if you find the quest entertaining and don't mind being railroaded through the developer's story. It has all the hallmarks of a Story Before campaign with all of the ups and downs associated with it.
* The story isn't your character's story. It CAN'T be, unless (like The Bard's Tale) you also hard-code the player's character.
* You're not the protagonist. I generally get the feeling I'm just watching the story unfold, running from A to B so I can see the next scene. Sometimes literal cut-scenes tell the story, and making me wade through hours of meaningless combat in between does not make me more involved.
* The "GM" carries the whole creative load. This leads to burnout, as one person does a large amount of work to realize a small payoff in game. With MMOs this is magnified many times over, developers spend months creating and testing new quests that only take players a few hours to finish.
* On the other hand, MMOs make a perfect "black box" if that's what you're after. The GM vanishes behind a wall of programming and you can interface with the world directly.
So my assertion is that the Quest or Story Before model is a poor fit for online play. This has nothing to do with who gets to design the Big Black Castle of Ultimate Darkness (TM). It has everything to do with why I as a player would want to go there and what happens once I arrive. I think the players should be actively engaged in answering those questions and those creative activities should be a large part of actual online play. This implies a few things:
* Every character who is not a mook or "furniture" should be controlled by a real person in real time. Good guys, bad guys, important secondary characters ... all played by real people.
* This does not imply free-for-all PvP, there can be plenty of structure to restrict the players' interactions. As you pointed out, sometime restrictions spark creativity rather than stifle it.
* The game can provide tons of Setting but the backstory, if any, must remain firmly in the background. What's important is my character and his relationship to your character and the Situation that creates. The key will be designing software and System to support this kind of play.
* The player search and matching software will be critical so you can find a group of about 50-200 players who have similar goals and RP styles, people you would want in your TT game.
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