Supplement V: Carcosa (split)
Ron Edwards:
Hi Robert, and welcome!
I don't know if you've seen my essay from a few years ago, "A Hard Look at Dungeons & Dragons," linked in the Articles section (top right of any Forge page). I wrote about how any play of anything called Dungeons & Dragons in the mid-late 1970s was, effectively, inventing role-playing on-site. Furthermore, when I say "anything called," I mean that every group was working from a hodge-podge of materials, no one of which, and no combination of which, actually explained or showed how to play.
There were a lot of good things about that situation, and although it was necessarily transitory, a lot of what became concrete ("industry standard," quotes very much intended in the derogatory) in published games between 1987 and 1997 was, in my view, not worth even a fraction of the original potential. I think the Old School Renaissance is celebrating the rather crazed and wonderful potential of role-playing by revisiting those times.
And yet, it's not a mere re-visitation, as you say. For one thing, there is no single thing to re-visit. Whether it's dressed up as "Gygaxian" or "traditional" or whatever label one wants, the fact is, publishing back then was at best a kaleidoscope and at worst a mess (even at the worst, a glorious mess), and play back then was a local construction of whatever pieces one had. So I think it's not a return based on dogmatic re-creation (even if some people today feel and think as if it were), it's kind of a return to the primordial soup using those tropes, with the eventual result being a resurrection of creativity.
Looking at my essay again, I discovered a point which was left out, which is to say, something no one would notice but me. What I wanted to convey by describing the transition in role-playing from (say) 1980 to 1984 in my life was not discarding of a flawed thing, but sadness at the passing of its zest and replacement by comparatively humdrum consumerism. I don't think I managed to convey that point well enough, and I hope members of the Old School Renaissance who read that essay can be convinced that's where I was coming from. So what's going on with them (any views I might have of any particular product or claim aside), is right in line with what was in my gut as I wrote it.
As I wrote above, I have the Fight On! issues, and I'm liking them a lot. As far as I'm concerned, the Old School Renaissance is a great thing.
Best, Ron
robertsconley:
Quote from: Ron Edwards on January 11, 2009, 11:58:09 AM
Hi Robert, and welcome!
Thanks and Good to be here
Quote from: Ron Edwards on January 11, 2009, 11:58:09 AM
I mean that every group was working from a hodge-podge of materials, no one of which, and no combination of which, actually explained or showed how to play.
While writing Points of Light, I had to keep four broad and overlapping "traditions' in the current old school market in mind. The first is the original 1974 Rules + Supplements, the second AD&D, the third the B/X rules, and last Castles and Crusades. Luckily my product is such that stat blocks are not a big part of it. (look at the preview to see what I mean). However if I was writing a more stat heavy product then I would definitely have to decide which of the four I am targeting.
For example in Issue #3 of Fight-On! I wrote a setting designed as a map to add onto the Wilderlands of High Fantasy (by Judges Guild, Necromancer Games). I deliberately wrote the Wild North using the 1974 rules + supplements in mind. There is a completely original side in how I used Russian Myth creating the background. However there are a strong tide of OD&D running through the locales I detailed. For example just about every magic sword has a bit of intelligence or powers associated with it. This is due to the fact when use the random treasure tables magic sword tend to be just that.
Quote from: Ron Edwards on January 11, 2009, 11:58:09 AM
There were a lot of good things about that situation, and although it was necessarily transitory, a lot of what became concrete ("industry standard," quotes very much intended in the derogatory) in published games between 1987 and 1997 was, in my view, not worth even a fraction of the original potential.
In my opinion the flexibility of RPGs has a dark side in that a author can easily choose to focus on one aspect to the detriment to others. By the late 80s a lot of what you could do with RPGs had been discovered and people started pushing it to extremes. OK let's detail a WHOLE WORLD. OK lets have a combat system that gives the exact depth in inches of that stab room. Let's detail the Dark Reaver Clan unto the 13th generation and so on.
I created a light background for all four settings in my Points of Lights product so if a referee wants to combine them they could. I had to resist going beyond a certain point as it would be really easy just to go on about the dark god Sarrath, or prattle on about The Bright Empire. The primary purpose of Points of Lights wasn't to show off my literacy skill at creating a secondary world. It was to make four settings that could drop into any referee running a D&D style fantasy campaign.
Quote from: Ron Edwards on January 11, 2009, 11:58:09 AM
I think the Old School Renaissance is celebrating the rather crazed and wonderful potential of role-playing by revisiting those times.
Fight On! has been quite enjoyable in that regard. There been a wide range of material presented some straight foward treatment of fantasy to other that are really "out" there. A great deal of fun to read. The enthusiasm and diversity was one of the reason I wrote for the the magazine and will continue to do so.
Quote from: Ron Edwards on January 11, 2009, 11:58:09 AM
As I wrote above, I have the Fight On! issues, and I'm liking them a lot. As far as I'm concerned, the Old School Renaissance is a great thing.
Around 1980, switched to running a sandbox fantasy campaign using the Wilderlands of High Fantasy. Since then I continued that campaign and the sandbox style through a variety of rule systems (Fantasy Hero, GURPS, etc). I always felt a bit of an odd duck because of the mega settings like Forgotten Realm and later the rise of the Adventure Path. It good to have a market that can use the sandbox material I am creating.
Enjoy
Rob Conley
James_Nostack:
Because a couple of guys from the Old Skool D&D crowd are looking at "us" while we're looking at "them," (ignoring the fact that there's probably a decent amount of overlap in the margins), I just wanted to point out that the goal of the Forge is to promote the design and publication of creator-owned RPG's. Everything else is secondary. Sometimes that fact gets lost on the Internet.
Which is to say, if you want playtesters, or someone to bounce ideas off, or some practical suggestions about publication models from people who have done this stuff themselves, or to connect with an artist, or work out some convention stuff - that's exactly what the Forge was built for. You can use all these features without having to give a tinker's damn about "RPG theory" or whatever Internet hullabaloo is making the rounds this month.
If you want to write your own game (or game supplement, or whatever), and get it to a bunch of people, the Forge was built to be useful for you, should you ever feel like dropping by and talking about your project.
Calithena:
Hey guys,
As a member of both communities I'm happy to discuss issues with folks. I currently help publish Fight On! magazine, which I think played a significant role in spreading the 'old school renaissance' label and growing the current community. The label isn't important though.
Carcosa is a usable gaming product with some really nice color (crayola people aside, though that does create a certain alien sensibility for me personally). Mearls pointed out that the extensive ritual descriptions don't just provide magic spells, they also tie the magic into the setting - a design feature that has some precedent for example in Reve: the Dream Ouroboros but is generallly under-utilized in RPGs. Mechanically Carcosan sorcerers are just fighters who can do rituals and in that sense Sorcerer might actually handle baseline characters better (with the naive sorcerer vs. trained distinction). I would consider Carcosa for a Sorcerer setting - I think it could work very well.
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