What's narrativist about Zero RPG?
mcv:
Hi,
Short introduction:
I'm new here, and I came to the Forge because a new player in our group (well, he's been with us for over a year, but the rest of us have been playing for 15 years) pointed me here. He was unsatisfied with the kind of play he got at our group and wants something else. I'm open to something else (I think we should be able to get a lot more out of our RPG experience), some others might be too, so I read a couple of posts and articles on GNS theory, and I still don't understand a thing about it, mostly because the articles are really vague, verbose and use ill-defined terms. I'm looking for examples, and while I understand that GURPS is aimed at Simulatonist play (few other RPGs try to model so many aspects of real and imagined realities with that kind of accuracy), and I suspect old-school D&D is typically Gamist, I still have no idea what a Narrativist system would look like, and I'm completely unfamiliar with all Nar systems mentioned in various places, with one possible exception.
My actual question:
In a few places, I saw Zero mentioned among lists of Nar RPGs. I happen to own Zero. Never played it, mostly because it seems a bit too outlandish in setting. Basically it's Paranoia meets The Borg. All you've known all your live is this underground Hive Mind society ruled by Zero, the queen. Suddenly your telepathic link is severed, and Zero wants you dead. You've never experienced individuality before, and need to develop your own identity while fleeing from and leeching off Zero's society. The mechanics include a really cute mathematical trick that automatically balances all characters (the more you can do, the worse you are at it, and the better you are at the stuff you're not specialised in), which means that characters don't get stronger, they just specialise or diversify in different skills.
So what exactly is so narrativist about this? We're exploring freaky characters, an unusual setting and a weird situation. Sounds like freaky character-driven Sim with lots of room for deep character roleplay to me. It seems related to WoD storytelling to me (creepy setting where freaky characters are wrestling with themselves and their surroundings), but as I understand, that's all Sim.
I would have expected something like Serenity RPG to be a better example of a Narrativist system. It has Plot Points that players can use not just to save their ass or get some bonus on a roll (which many other systems including Shadowrun, CORPS and WFRP have), but also to actually change the story. Introduce a new NPC, a new relationship their character has with someone, mess with relationships between NPCs, etc. I realise Serenity is probably too new to be listed in those articles, but what the hell is Zero doing there?
I hope understanding this will help me understand the Forge lingo a bit better. Because so far, Narrativism sounds like a big contradiction (according to some definitions, it sounds like something really hard and artsy-fartsy, according to other definitions it seems like what lots of roleplayers have been doing for decades counts as narrativism too).
I hope you won't take too much offense at a new guy questioning the big model. I'm just trying to understand what you're talking about, because I do think there might be something useful in there.
Ron Edwards:
Hi there, and welcome!
I'll dive straight into your question because it illustrates a common misunderstanding: it confuses Agenda with Techniques.
All that shit about Plot Points, narration, funky counters you trade around, anything like that, whatever, that people describe variously as "Forge games" or (ugh) "story games" and so on ... all of that is mere Technique. It's not trivial, as I'll explain in a minute, but no Technique is an Agenda, in and of itself.
That's right - you can have a game with all kinds of these wild and non-standard rules where you get to narrate the outcome of a roll if it's Tuesday, but on Wednesday you don't roll dice but bark at the moon to resolve combat ... whatever. And that doesn't make it Narrativist. That game, or more accurately, the way it runs most fun, could be facilitating any one of the Agendas.
Creative Agenda is definitely facilitated by System (best understood as how the various Techniques work synergistically) ... or rather, a given System might be good or bad at doing so ... but the point is that Creative Agenda is something the people playing want to do, not any intrinsic quality of any of the Techniques being employed.
I have a lot to say about Zero specifically (Ralph Mazza always bugs me with the same question), but I want to make sure that this basic issue gets cleared up first. Past experience has shown me that sometimes it requires some extensive dialogue, so let me know what you think.
Best, Ron
mcv:
So Zero, despite not having any story-oriented techniques, does facilitate a narrativist agenda more than it does any other agenda? Because if that's so, then how does it do that? How does it do that more than, say, GURPS or Fudge in the same setting?
And if it doesn't facilitate a narrativist agenda, then why is it (only occasionally, I admit) listed among more narrativism-oriented games? And what is it that makes those games better geared for narrativism than others? Because to be honest, I still have no idea what narrativism really is.
What I understand from your articles is that it doesn't have anything in particular to do with narrative, at least. It's either about moral dilemma's, or about "addressing premise", whatever that may be. But I fail to see how Zero does that more than other systems. Or is it about setting? Does GURPS Traveller tend towards Simulationism, whereas GURPS Transhuman Space tends towards narrativism? (addressing various issues like: what the hell makes you human anyway?)
Ron Edwards:
Well, hold on there.
First, I didn't say Zero had no story-oriented techniques. It happens to have few or no techniques that happen to be trendy at the moment, that's all. On a related point, those techniques you're referencing aren't "story-oriented," they're merely aspects of how authority and narration get traded around.
In my experience of play, and so far anyone objecting happens not to have played it, the game's various features including its Techniques do facilitate Narrativist play-goals. I'll talk about that later, as I said. I totally want to answer your question about GURPS and FUDGE; it's the perfect question and I'm not dodging it. But not this minute.
The reason for that is, as you said, you aren't seeing what Narrativism is. That's why I want to talk about it first, rather than zooming into a Zero discussion with confused concepts banging around. If you're fiddly on Zero (having not played it) and fiddly on Narrativism, then it's impossible to discuss it - it's like trying to adjust two dials at once.
So to start with the Narrativism thing ... A lot of people say that Narrativism has "nothing to do with narrative." They are flatly incorrect. I often don't know what they mean when they say that. Sometimes it seems they're confusing narrative with narration, sometimes something else, whatever. With just you and me, here, I say that Narrativist play concerns the core emotional motor of experiencing and creative a narrative. So when you say, "its about moral dilemma or about addressing premise," (which happen to be the same thing, so the "or" makes no sense), that is about making a narrative through play itself.
It's like baking a cake. You can't start with the cake, you start with components and carry out processes that arrive at a cake (and in this case, we don't even know what sort of cake it is, to start). So Narrativist play can't start with a story ready-to-go, or use any processes that lay down a story in an arbitrary way regarding the important stuff. Maybe that's why people say that; maybe they think that if it's about a cake, there must be a cake to see right away.
I dunno; analogies work sometimes in on-line discussion and sometimes not.
One last thing: I don't have the ability to fire messages back-and-forth in units of a few minutes. I'm not avoiding you, but I'm pretty sure I'm not going to get back to the Forge before tomorrow. I'll pay attention to what you say, and let's focus on the Narrativism thing for now. But I ask some patience in awaiting responses.
Best, Ron
mcv:
Quote from: Ron Edwards on February 10, 2009, 12:24:16 PM
First, I didn't say Zero had no story-oriented techniques. It happens to have few or no techniques that happen to be trendy at the moment, that's all.
I have no idea which techniques are trendy at the moment, but my impression was that Zero has pretty standard mechanisms, apart from that cute mathematical trick with die multiplication and rolling above or below Focus, and how that inherently balances specialists versus jacks-of-all-trades. But that doesn't sound very story oriented. But I guess I'm overlooking something.
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On a related point, those techniques you're referencing aren't "story-oriented," they're merely aspects of how authority and narration get traded around.
How is narration not story-oriented? "Telling a story" is pretty much the dictionary definition of "narration.
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So to start with the Narrativism thing ... A lot of people say that Narrativism has "nothing to do with narrative." They are flatly incorrect. I often don't know what they mean when they say that.
But... I got that from you! You said, in Narrativism: Story Now: "story can be produced through any Creative Agenda." Webster gives as definition of narrating: "to tell (as a story) in detail ; also : to provide spoken commentary for (as a movie or television show)". I admit story and narrative are not complete synonyms, but they're pretty closely related. So now I'm wondering what subtle distinction you mean.
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Sometimes it seems they're confusing narrative with narration,
Now you're confusing me even more. Narrative is, now that I've got Webster open anyway, "the art or practice of narration", or "something that is narrated (story, account)". So what is there to be confused about? One of them is the process that produces the other.
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With just you and me, here, I say that Narrativist play concerns the core emotional motor of experiencing and creative a narrative. So when you say, "its about moral dilemma or about addressing premise," (which happen to be the same thing, so the "or" makes no sense), that is about making a narrative through play itself.
Moral dilemma is something I understand, and have appreciated ever since I started roleplaying. (Boy, that's a long time ago!) I fully agree that moral dilemma's often make interesting stories (though not always, and it's not the only way to get there), but now I'm wondering what's so special about it that it requires special facilitation by the system. I've encountered lots of excellent moral dilemma's in systems I'd consider highly Sim or Gam, like Traveller, GURPS or D&D.
Zero, on the other hand, seems (to me) to be mostly about survival and self-discovery. I don't see a lot of room for moral dilemmas there.
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It's like baking a cake. You can't start with the cake, you start with components and carry out processes that arrive at a cake (and in this case, we don't even know what sort of cake it is, to start). So Narrativist play can't start with a story ready-to-go, or use any processes that lay down a story in an arbitrary way regarding the important stuff. Maybe that's why people say that; maybe they think that if it's about a cake, there must be a cake to see right away.
I dunno; analogies work sometimes in on-line discussion and sometimes not.
I don't know either. I do agree that roleplaying is about the process, not the end result. Or maybe the ideal end result is establishing a good and satisfying process that works for that particular group. Something like that.
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One last thing: I don't have the ability to fire messages back-and-forth in units of a few minutes. I'm not avoiding you, but I'm pretty sure I'm not going to get back to the Forge before tomorrow. I'll pay attention to what you say, and let's focus on the Narrativism thing for now. But I ask some patience in awaiting responses.
Take your time. I'm in no particular hurry, and I prefer a thorough answer over a quick one.
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