[Liquid] Well, I just rolled the dice for show
Frank Tarcikowski:
Yeah, I'd rather suffice to myself, if ya know what I mean. ;o)
But I think this may cause the wrong impression now. To be clear, shallow play is possible in many variations, and we've probably all seen games that were only concerned with getting SIS details right, but to no end as nothing meaningful ever happened. That's not what I'm after, I want the whole package of details and meaning. Only I'm saying that even the potentially most meaningful choices in a roleplaying experience feel empty and invalid to me if the SIS is nothing but a blurr.
And personally, I'd always start with getting the details right before I get to the meaning, not the other way round. That's probably the point where we differ, plus maybe the amount of detail and consistency we prefer.
- Frank
Frank Tarcikowski:
Callan, I agree with you that it’s not science. I would probably just have called it “creative contribution” rather than “artistic expression”, but we mean the same thing. However, if someone’s creative contribution violates the inner logic of the SIS, e.g. because it is in clear contradiction to already established SIS elements, then it’s a bad creative contribution because it fails to connect with the others’ contributions. What’s worse, if it gets accepted into the SIS, it invalidates the former contributions. As the bits and pieces no longer fit together, the whole picture doesn’t make sense any more and you no longer have any foundation for significant choices at all.
Another point you’re touching is that you can’t be creative on command and some people just aren’t, at all. I’m not sure I understand what your point is, here. While different modes of play require different forms and degrees of creativity, I think that a player who does not make any creative contribution should not play. However, no creative contribution happening was not what was going on in the “blurry” games I mentioned. It was more that the creative energy was solely directed at the larger story arc and not at the current in-game situation and how it evolved; the situation, blurry as it was, instead being ignored or sloppily retrofitted to follow the plot along.
- Frank
Callan S.:
Well, this is getting onto another subject (a related one, but still another subject).
That 'inner logic of the SIS' is, in my words, just an artistic expression as well. It's quite possible for one person at the table to see some violation while another just shrugs. I take that as evidence the person who see's the violation is actually making an artistic expression themselves. Everyone who sees 2+2 = 5 can see an error - how come one guy is shrugging at this alleged game world logic violation but the other is adamant? That's because its just the other guys artistic expression. There is no real logic being broken here - there is only an artistic expression (the expression being that logic) that someone elses contribution is not forfilling.
Which basically says "My art is above yours and your art should conform to it". Well, usually it avoids any ownership clause by the person refering to the SIS, rather than my artistic contribution. Indeed I think it's often put that way in a dream like way, rather than deliberate, like one might act upon a dream world while sleeping, not as if it is the artistic creation of ones sleeping mind (which is it), but if it is THE world* and something that is nothing to do with ones own artistic expression (creative denial?).
I'm starting to see why Ron put emphasis on the 'right' in 'the right to dream'. It determines who's art comes first. Which, I think, isn't so bad if you decide it in advance with some ruleset. It's not terrible to say your art is above someone elses and they have to conform their art to yours, if you can point out some rules they agreed to and understood (when reading it) that these rules determine who's art is above who's.
As I said, more of a side topic. I hope I've granted legitimacy to using pre agreed rules to put one art above another is okay. I just have to write it out because for years now, in lots of actual plays, I see people pushing their subjective artistic expression above someone elses as if it were pure logic, with no actual rule granting them such a lofty position (to put it politely). As roleplay culture is, I need to make a bit of a stand against that rather than remain silent about it. But I hope it's clear I'm not stamping on the idea completely - with pre agreed rules about who's art comes first, it works fine. I'm just being pedantic.
Quote
Another point you’re touching is that you can’t be creative on command and some people just aren’t, at all. I’m not sure I understand what your point is, here.
That was kind of off topic, just in responce to Ralphs comment. And it went on for awhile, for what was supposed to be a side note. Oops!
* Heh, I still remember the time I crashed a car in a dream then assured everyone by saying "It's okay, it's just a dream". I think I have trouble really entering into a dream. Though I did find it important, ironically, to assure people who were just figments of my dream. I think they were going to get really upset, otherwise...
Frank Tarcikowski:
Ah, I see. Well, I fundamentally disagree. I think it’s open to judgement whether something makes sense or not. I think if no clear judgement is possible about whether something makes sense, in the context of already established SIS and maybe some presumptions based on genre, source material or the likes, then Exploration is not working. If there is no common ground, if you need a “buck” to “stop” because you cannot make a convincing argument otherwise, then you’re out of bounds.
The associated Big Model term is Credibility. It’s obviously just my personal technical preference, but to me, Credibility that’s exclusively derived from procedural rules is worthless. Credibility needs to be earned. This is not a point about Simulationism, although I’ll grant that I do like to play Simulationist and the Liquid game certainly was. But I also do like to play Narrativist and even Gamist sometimes and in all modes I feel that way about Credibility.
- Frank
Frank Tarcikowski:
P.S.: And this is SO on topic, as we are finishing the loop here! In the Liquid game, the participants were actively judging and approving what happened the whole time, that was what validated the creative contributions and lent Credibility to those who made them. Therefore, the correct application of the resolution mechanics was not required as a validation and I did not feel betrayed when I learned the GM had sometimes just rolled the dice for show.
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