[Trollbabe] Keep on Rockin' in the Troll World
Paul T:
Let me jump in here again.
James,
Your post about Daydreamer Fantasy is incredibly insightful, and has made a lot of this make sense for me. And your interpretation of Trolls through mythology also brings the whole thing together in such a way that I had assumed it was the way Trollbabe was, and the only way it could be. I'd like to read the book, now, to see what's actually presented there. (I've been procrastinating on this, of course, because I'd rather read the new, upcoming text, and so I wait.)
Just wanted to say that was great stuff, and I really enjoyed reading what you wrote there.
The scenario outline really made some things click into place, as well--since we didn't get to see it all in play. Would it be inappropriate to ask you to spill the beans about the wedding ring, etc.?
Callan,
You are right, of course. Such hiccups do reduce the quality of play. However, they don't automatically make fun into un-fun. That's the distinction I was trying to make. I think Dave (Berg) explained it well--there was a slight feeling of disconnect between what the rules were and what we were trying to do, story-wise and game-wise. Part of it may have been the need to wrap up quickly, as well. Had we been playing in the middle of the day, with no deadline by which to end things, we might have been more relaxed about it.
The situation was more like:
"Hang on, this is strange. These odds look bad. How's this going to go? I'm getting worried this might not be any fun..."
"..." (some more play, which may or may not have involved fudging some rules)
"Oh, OK! It all turned out well. That was fun!"
I don't know if that makes any more sense to anybody. Kind of like when you have fear something might go wrong, but then are relieved that it turned out well instead.
It IS something I would worry about were I to play Trollbabe again, however. I'm not sure I would be able to relax and trust the rules to do their thing. And that's why I brought it up on this forum.
Ron Edwards:
Hi guys,
Here's my take, and I hope it's believable that I'm not telling you how much fun you had, or whether that was enough fun. I can, however, make a pretty good case about how the interplaying parts of Trollbabe work, and how I see from this thread that certain parts were not utilized to their full (and fully trustworthy) extent. I'm not sure I have the time to write it in the most elaborate and pedagogical way, though. Maybe brevity will help.
The key issue is the Stakes. Paul, you wrote about them in a way which jarred me upright: that the trollbabes were supposed to get to a certain place in order to confront a problem which would then resolve the scenario.
Whoa.
In playing Trollbabe, the characters are under no obligation to do any such thing. Sooner or later their actions and inactions will resolve the Stakes, even if they come nowhere near it, find out nothing about it, care nothing about it if they do, and do nothing about it directly. In that extreme circumstance (and I stress, not necessarily to be avoided!), the GM's job is to "close the case" and have the Stakes meet his, her, or its end as dictated by the circumstances.
Long ago, Jesse wrote that he struggled with the perception that Trollbabe was about "hunt the wumpus" scenarios. We talked about that quite a bit, and I think that over time, he found that there was no need to treat the Stakes as a goal for the scenario, but as a tool for the GM to know when the adventure was over, no matter what happened, what the trollbabes did or didn't do, or whether they succeeded or failed at what they wanted.
I'm going only by what's been posted here, but the issues of failed conflicts, the issues of "not getting where we need to be," and the issues of injury and incapacitation - which resulted as you've both written, in cautious play focusing mainly on Color - all seem to me to reduce to that single point.
If, say, two trollbabes are in an adventure and both end up incapacitated, or incapacitated enough times, as to be ineffective regarding the Stakes - then no big deal. The Stakes end up going in a particular "way" (live or die, escape or remain caged, et cetera) and you have a grim and battered story as a result. I think embracing that possibility isn't such a bad thing.
Let me know what you think.
Final point: James, that was a great orientation post about fantasy and Trollbabe. However, I submit that the activity of this type of fantasy is still very much with us, although it is not currently commodified. I sometimes think that's for the better.
Best, Ron
James_Nostack:
Ron, thanks for that post, and for the way in which you made it. I certainly welcome any advice or diagnosis; later on this evening, I'll try to describe the events of the session in more detail so that everybody's operating from the same body of data.
Quote
I submit that the activity of this type of fantasy is still very much with us, although it is not currently commodified. I sometimes think that's for the better.
Agree 100% on how lucky we are to have escaped its commodification. Rock 'n Roll may be dead, but at least we still have this. I have to say that in my experience, artworks of Daydreamer Fantasy are all-too-thin on the ground, but as sort of a widespread collective-unconsciousness type of thing, I think this is where everyone's imagination lives, at least when it's allowed to operate freely. I think that's a big part of the appeal: it feels so intuitive and natural, like the easiest thing in the world.
Anyway-- quickie adventure summary and rules points to follow.
David Berg:
Hi Ron,
I have no trouble at all imagining a given game of Trollbabe unfolding exactly as you describe (incapacitated PCs, dire resolution of stakes), and I agree that's a fun possibility to keep on the table.
However, I have a lot of trouble imagining how that could have unfolded in this particular game we played. My impression was that the PCs themselves were major agents of change in this scenario, and that without us pushing things along, the situation might grind to a rather slow pace, slow enough that nothing would get resolved by the end of the evening.
Of course, with the PCs neutralized, James could simply have given us a distilled narration, even relating years of in-game time in a few minutes if that's what would cover Gantwood's arc. But man, that would have felt weird. Without Paul and I responding to evolving situations, James would have had to simply decide, "Uh, well, I guess at some point Gantwood would get driven out... and then, with no one to help him, the humans would probably find and kill him eventually..." That seems distinctly less fun.
So, I'm curious to see what other options we had, options which I failed to anticipate. James, maybe you have actual answers to some of this? If you'd rather wait on that topic, that's cool, no hurry.
-David
P.S. Re: Daydreamer Fantasy vs modern fantasy, I wonder where ElfQuest fits in? Timbuckle and Hobwart had me thinking Petalwing and Picknose...
James_Nostack:
Dave, there was certainly a fail condition in the scenario: Mollywort marries Wirresprocket and together they agree to "adopt" Gantwood, driving him into madness to the point where he completely loses it and gets killed. This is a bummer, but Daydreamer Fantasy carries with it the possibility of bummers. (In my only time playing Trollbabe, a little girl was sacrificed to a sea-demon. C'est la vie.) It wasn't a foregone conclusion; I suppose there were a lot of ways to solve the problem: disrupt the wedding, remove the curse, take Gantwood away from a toxic environment. use evidence from Klaus to absolve Gantwood, etc.
Actual Play
Scene 1 - Ingrid, the trollbabe raised by humans - is in the Silent Forest, talking to the animals, when she hears a monster crashing through the underbrush. Retreating, she sees it is a troll: Gantwood. Ingrid tries to make friends with Gantwood, but he panics and knocks her unconscious. (Minor Social Conflict - Ingrid fails to make friends with Gantwood.)
Scene 2 - Thora, the trollbabe raised by trolls, while passing through the Silent Forest, encounters Mollywort, who seems agitated about her friend Gantwood. Relieved to have someone's shoulder to cry upon, she invites Thora to her house in the Dell.
Scene 3 - Ingrid is awakened by Timbuckle, a troll-child who is an apprentice scare-monger, who excitedly takes her back to the Dell. On entering the Dell, Ingrid performs a magic ritual to see if she has any relatives here. (Player-initiated Minor Magic conflict - Ingrid discovers that Wirresprocket is her relation.)
Scene 4 - At the Dell, we get an info-dump: Mollywort's parents Hobwort and Aniseed disapprove of Gantwood in varying degrees, and Aniseed looks forward to Mollywort's marriage to Wirresprocket. Wirresprocket, meanwhile, is disturbed that two trollbabes have come into his little fiefdom, and tries to either drive them out, or magically compel their loyalty to him. (Medium Social + Magic Conflict - Thora and Ingrid remain free within the Dell, and Ingrid wins Wirresprocket's trust in a we-recognize-each-other-as-schemers sort of way.)
Scene 5 - Thora gently suggests that Mollywort shouldn't marry Wirresprocket, and they go hunting to find Gantwood. (Player initiated Medium Magic + Fighting conflict - Thora fails to find him before the humans do, and Thora is incapacitated.) Paul narrates this as she finds Gantwood . . . but is captured by the humans hunting him. Thora buys enough time for Gantwood and Mollywort to escape.
===At this point, we broke because it was late at night, and reconvened a week later===
Scene 6 - Ingrid (who was brought into Scene 5 as a "sudden ally") protects Mollywort and tries to track down the escaping Gantwood. She then tries to ascertain what's wrong with Gantwood generally. (Player-initiated Medium Magic conflict - Ingrid discovers that Gantwood is cursed, so that the more indebted/incapable he feels, the more bestial he becomes.)
Scene 7 - Thora recovers in a human camp, watched over by Asgerd (mother of Klaus-the-captive). Thora, who's never dealt with humans before (role-played very nicely by Paul), tries to make friends. (Player initiated Social + Magic conflict, in order to get some extra dice due to Paul's terrible Social score - Thora fails and is either Incapacitated or Super-Incapacitated (we got mixed up here) - resulting in Asgerd deploying a magical manacle to force Thora to lead the hunters directly to the Dell.)
That's where things begin to get wobbly: Paul went from being Incapacitated, to Injured, to (at least) Incapacitated again, pretty much immediately. It didn't help that Paul's dice are broken and cannot roll successes. But I think he felt somewhat de-protagonized by the rules, because he couldn't really do much.
Scene 8 - Ingrid and Gantwood head out to rescue Thora. There may be a minor social conflict with Mollywort, can't remember.
Scene 9 - Thora, still reeling under Asgerd's magic, tries to lead them astray. (Minor Magic Conflict - Thora leads them to a "false Dell".) There's a very funny scene where Thora tries to mimic the ferocious man-eating trolls and intimidate the huntsmen into fleeing. (Medium Fighting + Social conflict - Throa scares off several of the hunters.)
During this conflict, I forgot that Thora was already Incapacitated, and couldn't re-think the series/re-rolls/etc. to correct it, so we just went with it. It's the only point in the game where I overturned the rules. I suspect this would have been Paul's third Incapacitation in three scenes, had I remembered the rules.
As Thora makes a ruckus at the "false Dell," Gantwood and Ingrid arrive. (Player-Initiated Medium Fighting Conflict: Ingrid fails to drive the humans off without hurting them.) Gantwood goes berserk and starts maiming / killing people. (Player-Initiated Medium Fighting + Social Conflict: Ingrid manages to calm Gantwood down and save a few lives.) Thora, meanwhile, persuades Asgerd to take off the manacle. (Player initiated Minor Social conflict: Thora's a free woman.)
===At this point it was nearly midnight and I wanted to go to bed. I thought about ending here (sucks) or postponing resolution for yet another week (sucks), but decided it'd be better to frame a quick resolution===
Scene 10 - The trollbabes take Gantwood, Asgerd, and the unconscious human surviors to the Dell. Ingrid approaches Wirresprocket, and offers to take his rival away with her if he agrees to lift the curse. Wirresprocket agrees, but reneges during the ritual. He decides to poison Gantwood unto death. (Major Magical Conflict - Ingrid cures Gantwood.) Thora confronts Wirresprocket and beats him until he confesses in front of the Dell that he's the one who framed Gantwood (Major Fighting + Social Conflict - while dueling, Thora disgraces Wirresprocket).
Story ends with Gantwood cured, but helping to rebuild the Klaus's barn and his own sense of worth.
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