Actual RP in MMORPGs and World of Warcraft (split)
AJ_Flowers:
I'm kind of necroing this thread because it looks interesting to me and because as far as I know it's OK in the rules to do that. :)
Let me start by making a distinction that I feel is important to the topic: that is, there's a difference between asking, "Is roleplay possible in MMOs?" and "is roleplay possible in World of Warcraft?" I don't think every single person here is generalizing all MMOs as WoW, but as it's the most common MMO it also seems to be the point of common experience and the point in every example. You're going to find a very different kind of play on, say, EVE Online, a game I don't think was mentioned in the thread, than in a fantasy game.
Quote from: John Adams on February 02, 2009, 06:56:07 AM
What's needed is major design shift that places the creative engine in the players' collective hands. More on that later.
Okay. Here you go. It's new; we got it just a few weeks ago.
I'm really familiar with this game, so let me tell you as a long-time player, what happened next.
Some people are using a content creation engine to create Achiever-oriented maps and modules that exploit the game's systems for the highest possible rewards for their characters. (Those people may also have interest in roleplay, but, they want to roleplay being really high level.) Enough said about that for right now.
Some people want to use the system to make their character's story. So, say, they tell a story about their character, but you are the one that actually experiences it. A lot of people don't like to play a story in which they aren't really the star. Some people complain about Mary Sues, but other people think this is OK.
Some people want to use the system to make stories for their own characters to experience. So they design a mission for their character, and then... they do it. It's sort of roleplay, but just one-person roleplay.
Many people are using the system to create stories for others and I think this is mostly the intent of the thing. Some people make stories for just their friends, while others hope to get interest from the general public. Some people are using elements of the setting that are "canon" and using them in interesting ways, while others are saying, Hell with the setting, my story happens in an alternate universe where... or, my bad guy I invented is more fun because... or, you should really care about my personal hero's origin because...
The system is really imperfect, because you can only tell stories about certain kinds of things. You can try to bend it to tell different kinds of stories, but it's pretty hard. Your story will always include some kind of element of entering a place (office, cave, city park, whatever map you happen to be using) and beating up people who are in that place. Potentially you will get some kind of McGuffin-like item, but the item has no game effect other than you having the item. (CoH doesn't have "loot" in the standard sense, so it isn't as if you can put real treasures in your mission.) Sometimes the guy you have to beat up is a mook, and sometimes he's a challenging battle with a name and a face, and a little bit of dialog, but ultimately it's a story about beating these guys up, or avoiding guys, to get a thing, and/or possibly rescue some captured people. If you want to tell an interesting bit outside of that environment, you have to do it in the in-game text pop-ups that happen between travel from Place 1 to Place 2.
People have complained about railroading. See, the mission arcs don't leave you any real choice as to what you do in the story, unless the author is very clever, and many aren't. So a lot of what happens is... a mysterious tipster sends you to Place A, where you beat some people up and steal their thing. But... surprise, you were actually beating up good people, and the tipster tricked you, and now he has the thing! Chase him and get back the thing you foolishly gave him! Or perhaps your mysterious tipster told you to rescue a person, but the person... was actually the bad guy! Now go beat up the person you just rescued! People love to tell that kind of story. Also, you might railroad a character in to taking some kind of action in the between-place text pop-up, that that character wouldn't have wanted to take.
So it's a system that's still in-process, but it is now out there. Is this roleplaying yet? I dunno?
I guess I'll also point out that Tabula Rasa (now dead) and Matrix Online (pretty shoddy), and probably other games too, have experimented with having live "Gamemasters" running public events. Lord British showed up in person a few times in the old days too, as I recall... so some human element is out there among all the automation, but it's so rare, and the failure rate on this is really fairly high.
Ron Edwards:
Hello,
Considering the length and relative compactness of that thread, I'll keep it as a single thing: Is actual RP in MMORPGs another next impossible thing?
However, the discussion may continue right here!
Best, Ron
LandonSuffered:
Hmm…reminds me of the old days when I used to try to create computer adventures using the Adventure Construction Set or even the Bard’s Tale Construction Set. The results were always much more disappointing than originally envisioned.
I know that many people who play on-line games would like to bring more of the table-top RPG experience to the console, and I know that these RPG computer games grew out of table-top RPGs originally, but I’ve come to the conclusion that they’re really two different animals (the same way, say, role-playing is different from live theater). They are two different art forms. The computer game just can’t help being a static construct, whereas an RPG (in the pen & paper sense) lives and evolves based on the input and imagination of the participants.
This isn’t to say you can’t have dramatic characterizations by players on a RP server in WoW, or that the designers can’t create engrossing story lines. But as far as player choice having an influence on the game world (or future game world events), there’s very minimal impact…if any at all.
My brother (an avid WoW player) and I have debated the differences and positive aspects of computer gaming versus RPGs, and tried to brainstorm ways we could design a computer game that would incorporate more creativity than “good graphics allowing a virtual experience of killing monsters and gaining loot while customizing your character.” We could never come up with a viable idea. RPGs, because they operated in that SIS created through Social Contract are malleable only by the people playing them. MMO games are designed like a neutral third party anyone can explore…very true to their original D&D (tournament style) roots, but failing to take advantage of the more recent evolutions in RPGs.
MMOs are fun and can serve as recreational entertainment, and unlike console RPGs (say Fable or Mass Effect) they allow cooperative interaction with other on-line players (and I include even PvP arenas as “cooperative;” everyone is cooperating to increase game play enjoyment even through direct competition). This is the same as playing Halo or Rock Band or racing on-line…it’s a way to share an experience in video game play for the enjoyment of all parties.
But although MMOs are “role” playing games (you take on the role of your avatar character), there are many aspects of table-top RPGs that cannot be emulated in the MMO environment. Face-to-face discussion and human (eye) contact is not duplicated in a networked gaming experience, and that’s a very nice side-benefit in a society that is increasingly alienated from its members through technology. Kabitzing around a table that can ACTUALLY IMPACT “what happens” in the SIS, in addition to increasing the overall enjoyment. Improvisation by GMs to better meet the entertainment needs of players (not being forced to conform to linear plots), and improvisation by players outside the “standard” rules of the game (again, breaking away from linear plot requirements).
It’s an unfortunate development (in my mind) that some folks believe traditional RPGs are being replaced (or have been already) with computer “RPGs,” and some game designers seem to be buying this as well as they try to design their RPGs to mimic on-line game conventions. I specifically point to the 4th Edition of D&D as a prime example; it seems squarely targeted at folks that are used to playing games like WoW; which is frankly crazy as you can’t out-do a computer game at what it does (i.e. “computing”). If people wanted that kind of game, well…they’d play on-line. And they do. My brother refuses to pick up a dice or flip through a game book anymore (and he used to), yet he’ll play WoW for several hours at a time. It meets his expectations for entertainment.
For me, MMOs can be entertaining (I’ve tried both CoH and WoW in the past), but as I don’t use them for social interaction, and don’t enjoy the direct competition of PvP, I find that I get bored with the linear and repetitive story lines despite the cool graphics and imaginative antagonists.
MMOs and true RPGs may share some similarities, but they are two very different forms of entertainment. Enjoy each for what they are but personally I wouldn't attempt to transfer game-specific expectations from one to the other.
AJ_Flowers:
Ah, thanks for the re-focus. I don't know if the new title was precisely what I was getting at with the first post: my primary example in the post refers to the game City of Heroes, which is dabbling in user-created content, though I see now I never wrote out the full name of the game, just linked to the site. But in this reply I'll continue to talk about WoW, so it'll all make sense.
In general, I want to avoid people making the mistake that WoW is exactly equviliant to every MMORPG ever made... even though it's the most successful one, the largest one, and is seen as the general case by which all the others are based. Designers out there are trying different things to support different kinds of play styles. I think it's worth noting though, that a lot of the different and radical experiments just haven't been successful, or have only been successful in a niche, rather than the broad success WoW has seen.
Going back to reply, I think it's a good point, and definitely one I've noticed, that DnD4th ed seems to be mimicking the gameplay of WoW, which seems in some ways like a backwards evolution.
So let's take for granted that World of Warcraft, the biggest MMO, is a baby of Everquest, which is a baby of Diku, which is an illigitimate child of Dungeons and Dragons itself. It seems like now everything has come full-circle, and DnD is stealing from its children. What gets lost in the translation here? And, more interestingly, if another RPG, such as one with a different CA than DnD, became the child by which all future games were copied, what would be our World of Warcraft today? Can we envision some kind of alternate history or is that not even remotely logical?
(Aside, if any reader has any interest in the history of MMORPGs, check out that link on DikuMUD, as it's really interesting and informative.)
LandonSuffered:
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So let's take for granted that World of Warcraft, the biggest MMO, is a baby of Everquest, which is a baby of Diku, which is an illigitimate child of Dungeons and Dragons itself. It seems like now everything has come full-circle, and DnD is stealing from its children. What gets lost in the translation here?
It’s kind of hard to address that question without seeming to devolve into Hasbro/WotC bashing, mainly because it boils down to a) D&D being a particular brand/license that’s being sold as a product (like say “the Serenity RPG,” or the “Star War RPG”), and b) the game company being “out of touch” with both new innovations, and the potential inherent in traditional RPGs.
Of course, some might say that they are much MORE “in touch” with market considerations than traditional RPG designers (because they recognize the large demographic of WoW players that is their target audience and thus stand to make more money), but that a subjective observation one way or the other.
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And, more interestingly, if another RPG, such as one with a different CA than DnD, became the child by which all future games were copied, what would be our World of Warcraft today? Can we envision some kind of alternate history or is that not even remotely logical?
That’s pretty hypothetical, and it would take some fairly radical technology (like an AI capable of taking player input and improvisational “self-coding” on-the-fly or something). Though it can be said that WoW (and other MMOs) appeal to a simulationist CA as well as a gamist one for folks who just like to explore the pretty landscape and skin raptors or whatever. Hell, there’s no gamist CA to 2nd Life, is there?
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