[DitV] How to challenge Dog teams
Moreno R.:
Quote from: Halfred on May 01, 2009, 04:46:48 PM
Moreno, are you suggesting that the choice to do something like the time-shifting examples in the book (shooting a coin, tracking a criminal) should be made after assessing how the dice have rolled? How do you set the stakes that relate to the conflict, then? I'm not sure quite how I would do that, but then I've got all of one game under my belt.
In any case, the stakes would not reflect the specific method you will use (never, ever, use Hedged Stakes: from page 77 of the second edition: "Think outcomes, not methods; the methods come from playing the conflict through"), so why should you roll the dice before setting stakes? The stakes are ONLY the character's intent: they want to catch a fugitive? Well, the stakes are "to catch that fugitive", not "to catch that fugitive using a nifty time trick during the conflict"
In this way, how can the stakes not relate to the conflict? I don't understand the problem. Can you write me a practical example?
Supplanter:
Quote from: Moreno R. on May 01, 2009, 08:46:23 AM
You simply don't do this in DitV: NEVER picture "what will happen". It will ruin your fun, and probably the player's fun too.
Roll with the dice and the narration. Be happy to be surprised, and surprise the other player, too. Catch the moment for a good raise or see, without trying to force the conflict in a specific direction. This will make for a more intense, dramatic and fun session that any "cinematic horse-chase".
I agree substantially with this. BUT, as a matter of esthetics, it's possible in Dogs for blocks and dodges to render conflicts narratively unsatisfying. This can happen when players use them in ways that stall any movement of the action. e.g. "She hops her horse and rides away." "I grab her reins and stop her before she can go." "She yanks the reins from your hands." "I grab them back." Etc. For some tables a sequence like this in some contexts will properly count as "lame."
Best,
Jim
KuroFluff:
I have only had the chance to run Dogs once but have had the same problem with three Dogs beating the crap out of a challenge. When it came to talking it usually made sense for one person to be the lead and the others to stand by or only give a die of help but fighting and gunfighting conflicts were an issue. The example in the book of more than one person on a side was a team of 3 versus a team of 2, only 50% bigger. Conflicts with a team 200% bigger, 3 versus 1, became too easy even when the 1 was possessed and had demonic influence and a fairly decent baby on her side (+1d6 for the baby, which I find hilarious). We still had a good time but there wasn't much tension in the 3 on 1 battles.
I can't think of any mechanical way to balance this besides adding 1 to the "seeing" dice for every opponent above one. I do think 3 on 1 conflicts need to be balanced.
David Artman:
A fairly brief search on this site will reveal threads which speak to how to hammer Dogs that, otherwise, are rolling every Trait every conflict and facing little opposition to their will (mechanically).
I am posting, then, to make a brief comment on this:Quote from: KuroFluff on June 09, 2009, 06:49:58 PM
I do think 3 on 1 conflicts need to be balanced.
One thing I've see mentioned very often about challenging Dogs is simply NOT to think in terms of winning on a mechanical level, but rather try to engage the players' morality such that THEY want to give rather than escalate. It's the whole, "Oh, really? OK, what about NOW?" progression, usually typified by putting the gun into a relative's hands or a child's... or a child relative's... or a cute little girl child relative's. You get the point.
The REAL trick, which you will inevitably face, is getting them not to blast holes in that cute little girl child relative when she is a false-worshiping sorceress backed by the whole town. Then again... that's part of the game: the players define The Faith, not the rule book, not your particular moral sensibilities. You get three Dogs all in agreement that, yep, the wacked-out girly gets filled with lead, well then by golly that's The Word of the King of Life (ironically). Find some sawdust to soak up the blood bath that will ensue (and be sure to describe, in lurid detail, her pitiful evisceration from .45 cal rounds to the guts).
Noclue:
My 2 cents worth:
1. DitV isn't really about game balance.
2. One sorcerer is just not going to last very long against three Dogs in a straight up gunfight.
Look for giveable conflicts, push for small stakes, make the Dogs have to think if they really want to do this thing, get them shooting each other; If all three of their guns come out pointed at you the dying is going to start. At that point, use your big demon dice with goes that hit all of them simultaneously (She speaks and a male voice reverberates in your head, driving you all to the ground!) Use lots of small dice to soak up attacks, taking massive fallout but bleeding their big dice so you can get some shots in. It won't last long, so make em count.
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