[D&D4e] Feeling defeated by the ruleset
AzaLiN:
I've been DMing a D&D 4e campaign for 2 or 3 months, playing twice weekly. It started off a little rough, but after I shrank the group size to 4 players it went extremely well for a long time- the players would phone me every few days to try and arrange another game, and the games would last up to 10 hours long. If I had to describe how the gameplay went, it was quite gamist with numerous aborted narrativist and simulationist elements that the players (powergamers, used to MMORPGs) were bored by. I realized this might be the case before the campaign even started, and prepared for it- as i said, the campaign went really well for a while.
This is my first post here; I'm immensely impressed by this website thus far. I never imagined such a place existed...
Over the last month, however, I've completely lost interest in running the campaign, and instead of playing 2-3 times a week, I've avoided hosting a game for 2 weeks :( I have to remedy this!
I've been reading the articles here, and I think I'm having a GNS incompatibility issue- in RPGs, I like playing Narrativist-style games with a consistent, realistic-ish world, and a karma resolution system with a bit of luck- maybe a d6 instead of a d20. 4e isn't really suitable for this- the mechanics don't lend themselves to realism or plausibility in the slightest, and this has destroyed immersion for me 200%...
(- the fighter COMBAT CHALLENGES a swarm of mindless spiders, and the rules support it; he's tapped into their primal competitiveness or something... and the avenger swears oaths of enmity against unknown strangers he finds sleeping in the dark, in the wilderness. What's he avenging, exactly??!)
... The skill system leads to some weird results sometimes, but that's a minor complaint, as it works okay in a gamist context at least... It has never worked in a way that satisfies me outside of that context, looking back. The game, and the players, are intensely gamist, which i think is the main thing: I get pretty bored after a few games of it, but all my experiments (about 1/2 of games, making sure to keep a good ratio of what works) have almost completely failed to capture player interest- except for the bard, who does bite, but then everyone else at the table is catatonically bored (though the bard raves about how happy she was about how things went).
I think the way to make the group happy is to play it 80% gamist, but include narrativist elements for the bard once or twice a month, making the other suffer through the tangents for her sake... but I have no motivation whatsoever. I don't know what to do. I need something prepped for Tuesday, but I'm tempted to try getting someone else to DM, or running a premade module while hoping it inspires me somehow. I would switch systems, try to switch to a more narrativist mode, but the thing is: they love 4e. they spend their free time studying feats and powers and using the character builder; they talk about it constantly in their free time.
Eero Tuovinen:
Are you looking for advice?
I was in a similar situation earlier this decade - my solution was pretty much to learn to enjoy the game that others wanted to play, while also starting new, different games for my other interests. Later on I moved to another town and have been playing all sorts of games with different people. So I guess my advice is to not try to subvert of fix 4th edition D&D that your group is enjoying; better to start new games or work on enjoying the game yourself.
For that latter point, why aren't you enjoying 4th edition? It seems a pretty slick rules-set to me, as long as you're satisfied with a complex skirmish game. I know that this is easy to say when I can get the sort of gaming I want whenever I want, but to me it seems very worthwhile to patiently learn to enjoy many different types of games. You could start another game with different people while also developing your play of D&D with an eye towards making it shine in what it is good at. Or if you're utterly disinterested in the game D&D is, then playing it at all seems counterproductive to having a good time.
C. Edwards:
Quote
Over the last month, however, I've completely lost interest in running the campaign, and instead of playing 2-3 times a week, I've avoided hosting a game for 2 weeks :( I have to remedy this!
Above and beyond (or maybe on top of) any other issues you may have with 4e or your groups play preferences, you may also be just plain old burnt out. Playing 2-3 times a week, with some of the sessions going around 10 hours and with a game that can require a good deal of preparation by the DM, may simply have you overloaded. I can't play games I like in the way I like that long or that often without getting sick of them, so I can't imagine doing it when I'm not super jazzed by the play that is going on or with the system being used for that play.
My suggestion would be to cut back the frequency of your 4e sessions, as well as the time you play per session. For me at least, that goes a long way to keeping my enthusiasm and my energy at sustainable levels. Eero's suggestion on throwing a different game or two into your (now reduced) play schedule is good as well. Maybe you can recruit the Bard player for some play of games that seem like they would fulfill you main play preferences.
Callan S.:
Hi Azalin,
Well, drawing on my own history, their playing to win doesn't really provide any imaginative material. This may be your problem. Like they kill all the monsters in the dungeon - does that really provide any further imaginative material? Something that inspires new idea? Not really, it really just subtracts from the pool of inspirational material.
The second thing is - well, you know the computer game 'Half life' and how it was written using the 'source' engine? Half life is a game, the source engine is not a game. The thing with any edition of D&D is that it is not a game. It is best described as an engine. You don't play 4E. No one can - you can't play it as much as you can't play the source engine. I highlight this because it's twice as creatively draining if your acting like your playing 4E, when your really creating a game, then playing that game (often creating game during the session itself, on the fly). It's twice as draining because you can't just keep playing until an inspiration hits you, you have to create or you can't play at all. Mind you I've had an ugly arguement about D&D not being a game on another forum, so this may be a controversial suggestion (though I do hope the idea that 'half life is a game, the source engine is not a game' is non controversial)
In terms of running a predominantly gamist game, it may be the lack of new, inspirational imaginative materials being provided, that's the problem (rather than needing a bit of narrativism on the side to prop you up). And I mean specifically from the activity itself. It's not just a matter of going and drawing from other sources for inspiration - the problem is, inspiration goes into this activity, but none comes out again. It's like a money pit. Well, an inspiration pit. Your lack of motivation might originate from the activity being like this.
JoyWriter:
Callan, I'd say the better analogy is that someone gave you half life's game mechanics without any levels, and you have to build the whole of half life while playing it.
AzaLin, I agree your problem is basically that the game is not providing what you want, but other people love what you produce. I have a word for that situation; it's called work! If you continue serving your friends in this way it may be lovely, but the danger might be that they do not realise how little you are interested in the stuff they are doing. I might say something along the lines of "Guys, at the moment the only thing I enjoy about this game is that you like it! I can't keep this up at this frequency unless we change something."
Now what could that change be? Firstly you need to be getting something back for your effort or you're being a slave just for your love of your friends! Now it may be that you limit the game to the quantity that does interest you, or they could start paying you.
I'm half joking with the last one, because I don't think it has to be actual money, although it seriously could be. What is needed is some way for gamist players to create narrative content for you, that you vibe off of, pretty much as a service to you. Now this is a hard ask, and the system may actually need to be changed to support it; if powers rub you up the wrong way, their going to keep doing that regardless of whatever effort they put in. On the other hand, if you object to their use in certain situations, such as against mindless foes with which they have no history, then cut those out of your campaign!
If you can master merging your different interests to produce a sustainable game, then you will have made quite a forward step for RPG design, if not, don't worry, many others have had the same problem you recognise, and a frequent solution is just to split the group.
What kind of things does the Bard player like? Do some of the players that dropped out share your interest in proper narrative stuff? And when I say that, I'm concious that a lot of the details you mentioned so far sound more like sim than some of the joint narration, "dealing with issues" stuff that people might suggest.
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