Challenge the Player, not the Stat Block (D&D)
greyorm:
Quote from: Callan S. on May 24, 2009, 12:05:07 PM
Well, we can. Specifically we can say players deciding boundaries in advance of play, is bad for facilitating gamism now.
"Fighter" is a boundary. "Wizard" is a boundary. Would I assume correctly you would say that is a design boundary rather than a player boundary? (IMO, that would be splitting some pretty fine theoretical hairs and I don't think (or see) there's a good line between them. Would you be willing to give a dictionary-style definition of a design-created boundary and a player-created boundary and the difference between them? Perhaps list some of each category?)
But let's say I decide my character is a war-priest who doesn't have access to healing spells. Or a one-handed thief who has penalties to picking locks. Maybe he's a clever merchant so I give him a bunch of high social skills. Or a cruel wizard with a thing for cooking weird foods. Are those player-created boundaries? Are the randomized stats a player-created randomized boundary per unique character (they seem to be)?
If so, I can't do any of that or it's "gamism before" because I'm deciding on boundaries before play, whether mechanical or presentational. And where would the challenge be if I don't set character boundaries before play? Are we going to freeform it and now my character can do anything/everything? What you are suggesting would be, to me, completely inimical to fun, to the challenge of gamism: utilizing the set of tools at one's disposal to overcome a particular challenge or set of challenges.
(It would seem instead to me, the fewer tools with which to solve a puzzle, the greater the challenge. The more boundaries you have, the more thinking is required. Which is what makes challenges fun.)
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Well, I gave my reasoning for it but you've repeated your position without entering into those reasons.
Is it my turn to say "what the fuck?" There were words after the statement that I disagreed with you, the part where I explained why I thought your reasoning was erroneous.
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I think this may be veering off - your saying the problem is an attrition game, then saying it doesn't apply at low levels. I think we need to keep looking at player choices prior to play (if any) and player choices in play (if any) and which are more important toward winning.
But let me try one last time to be clear about my point with attrition: someone else pointed out "attrition" is an example of the "gamism before" problem--the system making choices for the player--specifically, how it prevents game choices like making surprise checks. To which I noted that particular issue isn't a problem in low-level play and suggested there may be mechanical break-points where play moves from "gamism now" to "gamism before".
Exactly what you've said we should be doing: looking at player choices and which are important to stepping up to challenges in play.
Also note: I'm responding to the arguments others are putting forth. I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't try to change goalposts and say "well, that isn't actually important" when I ask a question about or make a contrary observation regarding the nature of those arguments. But that does clear at least one thing up: having read J's response above, all I can say at this point is you and he are presenting two different arguments.
That is really making for a messy thread, and trying to discuss those two arguments has done nothing but created confusion, as I respond to points in one argument, and have those points judged in the other argument. Maybe once these arguments are separated out, I'd discuss them further, but right now it is proving quite aggravating to juggle two very separate discussions.
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And if you have a problem with creative problem solving in game…well, all I can say is that the mind is a muscle, and you might want to exercise it with some of these old school games. It WILL get stronger.
...and given this kind of patronizing tone throughout--about old school games requiring more challenge and creativity, and the new school games somehow requiring less creativity--and going so far at this point to call me stupid without coming out and saying it. Honestly, wow. Not classy, J. Just not.
I'd honestly love to discuss the idea that fewer character detail choices before play and greater rule stipulations reduce creative choices and improvisation by the players (an idea I strongly disagree with based on my own experiences in play, but that I'd like to make sense of), because in two-and-a-half decades of play I haven't experienced at all the claimed lack of creative challenge or "gamism before" in new school versus old school games, having played both old school and new school games regularly (heck, I just finished a true old school D&D game with the kids, and am currently playing in new school 3E and CoC 6th games).
But I'm not keen on discussing anything when that twenty-plus years of gaming experiences are ignored and rudely dismissed when it doesn't fit into the scheme of someone else's new, untested, revealed pet theory proving how their favoritest game ever is really the betterest game ever. Forget it, guys, this swing towards a bullshit attitude of "edition wars" is not worth continued time. Seen way to much of that garbage in my time. I apologize, but feel free to carry on without me for this one until such time as that particular miasma clears.
LandonSuffered:
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And if you have a problem with creative problem solving in game…well, all I can say is that the mind is a muscle, and you might want to exercise it with some of these old school games. It WILL get stronger.
...and given this kind of patronizing tone throughout--about old school games requiring more challenge and creativity, and the new school games somehow requiring less creativity--and going so far at this point to call me stupid without coming out and saying it. Honestly, wow. Not classy, J. Just not.
Sorry, if I gave offense...that was not aimed at you in particular, Raven (more than one person commenting on this thread has stated they "don't like riddles/puzzles.").
I would like to say for the record, that one of the things that initially drew me to D20 D&D was the creative potential inherent in the character creation process. I had a Dwarf Rogue/Duelist, a Wild Elf Barbarian, a Halfling Paladin, and a Gnomish Fighter...all cool characters that were "outside the box" and very neat. But the game play itself...well, it didn't feel nearly as tasty, once the game was underway.
That duelist particulary...I had to work that guy from 1st level on up to have a swashbuckling dwarf, and I made great use of Tumble and Bluff (for feints, etc.). But it was boring and mechanical after awhile...the fun was in plotting the class, feat, and skill selection, NOT in actually using the classes, feats, and skills. Again, challenge prior to play, not in play.
Oh, well...I stated what the point of my post was, and it was not supposed to devolve into "edition wars," but I see that it has and I bear full responsibility for that...I used what I don't like about one game to illustrate what I do like about a different one. I was rather hoping this thread could turn into a discussion about WAYS to challenge players in play (with examples from other readers Actual Play history), or even ways to incorporate player challenge into game design (since I see the Forge as a place to discuss design and theory). But I suppose it would be easier to start a new thread on that particular topic then to continue on this one where there's been four pages of argument.
Callan S.:
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I was rather hoping this thread could turn into a discussion about WAYS to challenge players in play (with examples from other readers Actual Play history), or even ways to incorporate player challenge into game design
I've tried out rolling a d12 not only for its number, but to try and hit a small cardboard target. And, so embaressing, I think I put some miss chance on the roll - imagine hitting the target and being told you missed! So silly. But outside of that, that was fun.
Also another time rather than the player, as GM I determined monsters on the map, then I had to throw a dice (always throwing them, aren't I?) into a bowl from a distance, otherwise the designated monster didn't show up. Kind of challenging the player semi directly with my own throwing skill, there :)
In terms of narrations that might win - I'm skeptical about always thinking people are syncronised imaginatively enough to do that. I mean, did the guy make the wrong move, or do both player and GM simply think in different ways? (and isn't it good for us to think differently, to begin with - thus something we aught to expect given we think it's good?) So I always think you should get some bonus for just trying a narration, because the mutual thinking that it would have made it work, might not be there in that particular instance. Though this always seems to be tricky ground to talk about - people always seem to think of, what appears to me to be non mutual thought, as an error on the part of the other.
If you start a new thread, I might cut and paste this over, if that's okay?
Ron Edwards:
This might surprise everyone, but I think it's been a pretty good thread. I do think everyone who contributed should look back and see how or whether he misinterpreted or reacted strongly to what someone else posted, and remember that no one initially responds rationally as soon as the words "old school play" or "original D&D" or anything similar. The key is not to go with one's initial reaction in responding, nor even with the second reaction which typically rationalizes the emotions as arising from some tone or implication in the post.
Let's close it here and head for the new thread when it starts, started by whoever wants. Callan, I'm sure your final post will do well there, or if you want, let that even be the new thread-start if that makes sense for what you want.
Best, Ron
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