What's at Stake in Dogs -- who leads?
Filip Luszczyk:
Then, I'm either confused by your previous clarification or I fail to see how the correct procedure differs.
On p. 54 I see no explicit rule for the transition from "out-of-conflict phase" to "conflict phase", as the text jumps right into establishing stakes. Sure, it is implicit, but based on that part of the text alone it is in no way clear whether the conflict is actually initiated by any single player, by the GM or by the whole group (though it's difficult for me to imagine "the group" doing it in a precise step by step procedure, unless it's some sort of hive mind group - obviously, a single person at the table will have to take initiative at some point and say it out loud that he or she wants a conflict started). However, later in the text, p. 138 supplements the procedure with the rule for "out-of-conflict" -> "conflict" transition (i.e. "say yes or roll the dice"), though the text remains ambiguous regarding who can invoke the rule (i.e. the section might be seen as addressing the GM, while the book includes examples of a single player launching a conflict). Finally, pages 76-77 expand the procedure for establishing stakes, clearly pointing at the GM as the person responsible for accepting the stakes proposed (and provide the GM with instructions on how to establish standards for that, i.e. "follow the group's lead", which in turn translates to "follow the single most critical player's lead").
This rulebook is starting to drive me crazy.
lumpley:
Hey Paul, if you have any more questions, shout out, I'm happy to answer them. Filip's kind of taking the thread over, but don't let him do it if you have more to ask.
Filip, the explicit rule for the transition from "out-of-conflict phase" to "conflict phase" follows. Page 53, first sentence of the overview: "We'll [meaning the group will, of course] use dice to resolve the conflicts the characters get into." Then page 54, first full paragraph, first sentence: "to launch a conflict, we [meaning the group, of course] begin by establishing what's at stake, setting the stage, and figuring out who's participating."
Is a character in conflict? Cool, we'll use dice to resolve it. We begin by establishing as a group what's at stake, setting as a group the stage, and figuring out as a group who's participating. Later text goes into those in more detail, but there's the rule, plain as can be.
If nobody in your group can tell whether one character's in conflict with another, page 138 has some good advice, and there's more throughout the book, plus you've got the model of the initiation conflicts. But if you seriously STILL can't tell whether one character's in conflict with another, I despair, and please play a different game.
-Vincent
Filip Luszczyk:
Vincent,
It's not like I can't produce a rule myself or hack the rules presented or whatever should I need it - however, that's totally not why I'm asking my questions. I'm asking because I want to know what the precise rule is in the game, and the rulebook frequently appears to be saying something entirely different than your reformulation here on the forum. Oddly, the longer I play this game, the more difficult it is for me to say whether I'm following correct procedures or not. Also, due to the way information in the rulebook is structured (and often implied rather than presented explicitly) locating answers in the text immediately is less than easy (in the middle of the session, consulting the book becomes essentialy impossible).
Now, I can see which of the rules on p. 54 you meant in your previous post. While I find it somewhat strange that a rule mentioned in the overview didn't make it's way to the detailed point by point procedure, I still fail to understand how it is different from "anybody is allowed to launch a conflict, anytime", in practice.
lumpley:
It's not "anybody is allowed to launch a conflict, anytime" because nobody's allowed to call for the dice if there aren't characters in conflict.
-Vincent
Moreno R.:
Filip,
I didn't notice that rule, too, but thinking about it, I always played DitV using it. Why? Because of the effect of the "most critical player" and "veto" rules: the stakes have to be discussed with the GM who has to adhere to the most strict standard at the table, with full veto power to everybody else: it's obvious that everybody has to agree to the stakes. That rule only make it explicit.
What would happen if anybody could declare conflict and stakes by himself, without everybody at the table agreeing? Using this rule in DitV would mean that, for example, if the GM is fast enough he could declare a conflict before you do and turn a possible gunfight in a dance match (the example is silly, but it's to exaggerate the difference that you failed to understand).
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