At the roots of roleplaying
rgrassi:
Quote from: Ron Edwards on June 25, 2009, 06:32:15 AM
Is there some way in which you think what you are saying disagrees with the body of ideas here at the Forge?
What are you saying which seems contentious or worthy of discussion?
Thanks for the kind reply.
My post wasn't intented to disagree with the "body of ideas", rather to suggest the existence of "more than one imagined space" that may be useful to expand the model and correctly describe some actual playing.
For instance, the synchronization of the SIS with the Personal Spaces would take rid of 'issues' like these:
http://www.lumpley.com/comment.php?entry=460
Or, the existence of "more than imagined space" (one at player level, one for the unvalidated moves, one for the shared) is given as proved? If so, I really excuse for this post.
Cheers,
Rob
Adam Dray:
Rob,
For more reading on current (well-established) Forge theory about the stuff in steps 2-4, do some searching for "IIEE," which are the steps by which a player's Intent is Initiated, Executed, and becomes an Effect of the SIS.
Vincent recently wrote a short game, ROCK OF TAHAMAAT, SPACE TYRANT, to illustrate a system that clearly delineates the IIEE steps. It's pretty cool. Check it out.
rgrassi:
Thank you Adam... I'll have a look. :)
Anyway, I'm probably not good to say it, but I'm talking about two more necessary "spaces" to be considered in the System.
Bye,
Rob
Ron Edwards:
Hi Rob,
As I see it, the existence of personal imagined spaces is not necessary to include in the model. The model concerns only what is done with the shared imagined spaces, and if personal imagined spaces are necessary or involved in the production of the shared ones, then they can be.
As an analogy - we might be talking about the room we are role-playing in together, or if on-line, the separate rooms we happen to be sitting in. Various questions or relevant points might be raised about how those rooms affect the role-playing experience for all of us. Yet even though it's true that without the larger buildings those rooms are part of, the rooms would not exist ... and even though it's true that without cities and towns those buildings wouldn't exist ... only the rooms themselves are observably relevant to the role-playing experience.
Your focus on the personal imagined spaces is true in the same way, as I see it. Yes, without them, there is no SIS. But so what? Role-playing is composed of and utilizes the SIS, exactly in the same way music utilizes sound or literature utilizes prose. I don't need to consider sounds outside the music while talking about the music; I don't need to consider marks on pages which aren't prose when talking about a work of literature. I don't need to consider imagined content outside the SIS when talking about how role-playing works.
I agree that the Anyway discussion is full of logical problems. But that is Anyway's problem, more specifically Vincent's, not the Forge's.
We don't have to fight about this topic. You've made a very good case for talking about how personal imagination operates in the socially-creative process of role-playing, and as I wrote above, I do not consider the wholly personal imaginative side of role-playing to be trivial or unimportant at the personal level. I've posted to make my slightly differing perspective clear, not to refute or to devalue yours. At this point, I think I understand what you're saying pretty well, and I hope my views are equally clear to you. That's really the only goal of the discussion.
Are you interested in talking about the sequential vs. harmonic issue?
Best, Ron
rgrassi:
Quote from: Ron Edwards on June 25, 2009, 07:39:37 AM
We don't have to fight about this topic.
Oh no... please. :D
But, I've a lot of things and examples to demonstrate why "Personal" and "Unvalidated" Imagined Spaces are, by far, more important than SIS and so, I think they should be an important part of the model.
If you agree, anyway, I'll be back on that in the next days.
(By the way, these 'process' activities do not completely map with IIEE, because you don't know a-priori what the players say explicitly, and the granularity [i.e. details about characters, setting, situation, color, and so on] of what is said is known only to the players taking part to session. I'll be back on this, anyway, if you agree).
Quote
Are you interested in talking about the sequential vs. harmonic issue?
Interested, but we've to agree, before, what you mean by harmonic.
If you mean that (1) and (2 a,b) may be looped until moving to (3) I agree with you and there's no need to discuss.
But (1) always preceeds (2). Meaning that when the sequence is started it begins always from (1) [personal level] and moves to (2) [validation level].
Rob
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