Warhammer; Chaos! Order! Molasses!
Callan S.:
Quote from: Frank Tarcikowski on July 14, 2009, 10:14:18 AM
Hi Callan,
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If I were to just write a hundred rules, with no intent on my behalf for them fitting together in any way at all, I'm sure on exposure to them (perhaps with some nifty fluff text and art) some group somewhere out there would "Know how to do it" with my hundred rules. When there is no fucking way to do it - I specifically just randomly threw rules together! I'm pretty damn sure that would happen - people would see a 'procedure' and 'the right way to do it' when there was none at all.
I agree, though a more purposefully designed set of rules would certainly give that group an easier time. I believe that coherent play is something that only the group itself can achieve or arrive at. We can give them rules that make sense, and cleverly written instructions, but they’ve got to get there themselves. Some groups do this effortlessly, those would be having fun with your 100 random rules in an instant. Other groups… don’t. So when you say:
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The bad bit is the absence of recognition that it's a halucination - there's instead this certainty that "That's how it's done!", when it isn't how it's done, it's something they've invented
The thing that bothers me is the „how it’s done“. What is „it“? The way it should be done? According to whom? Every group must find, invent so to say, their own way. You are certainly right that there are many groups that haven’t, but think/claim they had.
But what kind of „design“ are you imagining that would „contain and constrain“ the hallucination? I would rather tend to think that no design, but the group's capacities of human awareness and communication would be the remedy.
- Frank
This gobsmacks me, and yet I've come to see more and more roleplayers repeat things like this.
They'd 'get there' with my 100 random rules? Or despite them? There is no 'there' to get to, with or in spite of my 100 random rules! Seeing a 'there' is like seeing an image of jesus in some mundane object - it's not there. This seems 100% the hallucination I refered to, but being treated not as a hallucination but something actually being 'there'?
And how it should be done, according to whom? According to me, the author. Obviously it's incredibly easy to ignore the author. No, every group doesn't have to invent their own way. Or to reverse the position, who says every group has to invent their own way? Why is it that "that's how it's done"? According to whom? Who is saying every group must find their own way?
Atleast when I say how it's done for my game as author, someone might decide to listen to me cause they think I'm okay or know what I'm doing or whatever reason fits them.
When you say every group has to find their own way, who are you listening to, Frank?
As I say, I keep hearing things like this. I'm getting kind of desperate as to the why's of what is said.
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But what kind of „design“ are you imagining that would „contain and constrain“ the hallucination? I would rather tend to think that no design, but the group's capacities of human awareness and communication would be the remedy.
When they can't percieve what is a hallucination, they have no capacity to control it. Which is exactly the case when one dreams at night and is unaware of dreaming. These dream moments pop up during roleplay and the person having them has no real idea they are siezed by a hallucination.
In a rifts game the GM had said aimed shots take two attacks, but you just lower your total attacks by two and have your attack now - you don't wait an attack/turn, then shoot the next turn. Then it came to reloading - "Oh no, you can't just instantly reload and shoot - that doesn't make sense!" and you have to spend an attack just reloading. There was no perception of what was halucination and what wasn't - aiming and shooting could be done on the same attack despite costing two, but reloading and shooting - that was insane, apparently! Seized by the conviction that that's how it is, was the GM.
I've probably failed at giving proper tone. Sorry about that, Frank. But I don't know how else to address this without having failed to address this?
Frank Tarcikowski:
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When you say every group has to find their own way, who are you listening to, Frank?
Actually, I stopped listening to the people 'round here who would tell me otherwise (for the record: Ron Edwards is not one of them). It's been "there and back again" for me, so this is a very well reflected position of mine, nothing anybody told me that I'm repeating. Also for the record, "there" is coherent play.
However, I see that my fundamental opposition is not helpful at this point. I will see if I can come up with something more productive, or else let others take over for now.
- Frank
Callan S.:
Yes, it's your position, but you've presented it as raw fact, Frank "Every group must find, invent so to say, their own way". I'm not jumping on that to say it's wrong, I'm saying there's something we, together, must grab hold of! Something unseen is entwined in those words and it slips away all to easily otherwise, and yet seems to be behind so many things. Vital, yet invisible.
And again, there is no 'there' in my 100 rules. It's like as the old experiment where a class is handed out their individual horoscopes. They are then asked to rate how well their personal horoscope describes them. Then, after they've given their ratings, they are told to show each other their horoscopes - which of course, are all exactly the same. There was no personal horoscope there, and there is no 'there' in my 100 random rules. Any coherant play has nothing to do with the rules. I specifically invented the 100 random rules so as to be like the horoscope experiment from above - to demonstrate a human behaviour. Oh, I totally grant if it was coherant the group played a game - one they invented themselves, but they'd totally attribute it to the 100 rules. Which is the human behaviour I set out to demonstrate.
Patrice:
It seems to me that the whole lot of later posts upon this thread are beating about the bush around the notion of System. When a game provides 100 random rules or a tight set of mechanical notions, it doesn't provide a System as such. I've also noticed such a tendancy to run into what you call "rules" (which I would call the Resolution engine) without any further question about the System itself. Rules by themselves, limited to the mechanics of the Resolution engine, don't provide any backbone for what a RPG is and don't allow any sort of play interaction to happen.
No wonder, given this, that they don't help nor sustain any coherent way to reach a common goal and play experience. So, to answer Frank, I'd say that, ok, granted "every group has to find its own way" given full understanding and agreement about the System of play. If you overlook the System and jump into Resolution mechanics, thinking that "it's the game", what you get is anything but a RPG, or rather a pretty dysfunctional one. Does that help with the "murk" issue ? There is a strong tendancy to take "what is this game about" for granted ("c'mon it's a RPG, we know what it's about") and to jump straight into mechanics, thinking that this is what is supposed to matter when we say System Matters. It isn't.
Jasper Flick:
Quote from: Callan S. on July 14, 2009, 03:40:31 PM
I don't think 'attuned' is right. It's more like, perhaps, a (cold) war of brotherly henpecking and that distracts them from third parties, for the most part. I'm not sure Matts contributions matter all that much either - he contributed alot of plans, and none of them were needed - he just snuck in, in the end.
That's basically what I meant. It's not like they made a deal, it's a procedure that evolved between them without anyone being aware of it. Let me elaborate.
You have the classical older brother who starts GMing for the younger brother. Probably lots of times just the two of them.
The older brother manifests as a solid traditional railroading GM.
The younger brother is firmly stuck in the passenger's seat from day one, due to procedures and seniority. But he wants to contribute and be creative too. What are his options? Traditionally, two jump out:
1) Contribute meaningless color (what drink do you order at the bar?).
2) Pause the train and go wild imagining stuff that could happen by planning for it, regardless where the train actually goes.
Both options are harmless to the GM, as all they do is delay and not derail. It's good for the player, because he gets to say his stuff and the GM lends a willing ear.
Both brother are happy with what they got, being ignorant of other options besides the railroad track.
Enter Callan.
Callan wants to contribute, so the older brother gives him options 1 and 2. Younger brother jumps at the chance, but Callan wants to skip them and continue the train. So does Callan want to contribute, or not? Callan makes no sense to the brothers.
Quote from: Callan S. on July 14, 2009, 03:40:31 PM
I have to say, I played monopoly with my partner and son a few times recently - it's basically a big game of snakes and ladders. I'm not against just playing what is a big game of snakes and ladders with Dan and Matt (just faster!) - if I want to do anything deeper, I'll ask them or find others who might want to try if they decline. Sometimes I think the need to keep focusing on the fiction is to avoid the idea it always turns out to be a big game of snakes and ladders. Though to be honest, I'd like it if monopoly had say an hour or two shaved off of it (I think our games went for about five hours! We played on the floor and everyones knees hurt!).
I can make sense of that, if snakes and ladders is an analogy of the RPG railroad. But then, you say you're ok with it, but in this thread you're complaining you can't get off the track. To me, you leave the impression that you're sick of it.
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