Warhammer; Chaos! Order! Molasses!
Callan S.:
Thanks for your efforts, Jasper!
I think we just don't match in certain life choices. If I have a choice about not relying on darwinism, I choose it. It's just what I choose. And in terms of being an egocentric, if there are restrictions, I want to know them so I can express my ego inside those restrictions exactly as my ego wants to. The rest of roleplay culture never seems to advocate any cleared space(s) in which you can be yourself, it always seems to promote being prepared to tone back or withdraw anything in terms of contribution (except where RP culture promotes you being the alpha wolf of the pack), which is essentially going with the flow or following the group mindset. We get some abberations to that now, like in capes you can work the system to do things your way, or in universalis you can build up some coins to do things your way. But by and large RP cultures message is one of conformity.
And in terms of doing something great, if you expose something to a group as if it's great and they think it isn't, your own sense that it's great erodes. You'll even get that here or on other forums "Oh, see, what you were doing didn't match the group..." But it was great!!? Again, I don't match this sort of set up - if I thought painting seascapes is great, I want to work on the techniques of my brush stroke and composition or whatever. It doesn't match me to just do what's great and potentially have that love erode away (any more than it already has eroded). I'm quite prepared to be wrong on my brushstroke, on my composition, etc. But not on what I think is great.
I just don't seem to match up to that model. Thanks it's write up, Jasper.
Jasper Flick:
I must confess that I don't understand the issue about darwinism. Darwinism is a way to explain how organisms evolved to be as they are now. It has nothing to do with how we deal with that "now" in the present. When I deal with the "now", I don't care how it came to be in the grand scheme of things. So how do you become successful with darwinism? How do you fix the stove with darwinism? What the hell does relying on darwinism mean? So I think this is either a miscommunication, a red herring, or some philosophical roadblock that I just don't see.
Considering restrictions, I think for that it's useful to consider roleplaying to be primarily an improvisational activity. It allows us to be creative and original and express ourselves in the moment, relatively unrestricted when compared to normal life. Nailing down everything and all options with rules will kill this dead. Trying to explicitly program for every possible action in order to allow creativity is futile, because it disallows us to be truly unique: we can only recycle and recombine within the bounds of the program. It's a fruitful void thing.
So to be improvisational you need a roomy stage to move about. But when it's a group activity you must also avoid stepping too much on other people's toes. Because if you keep disregarding others and step on their toes repeatedly, it'll degenerate into a fight, or you'll end up alone as everyone else decides to leave the stage. Stepping on toes is a fact of life, the issue is how to deal with it.
RPG texts can provide four procedures, the "Four Steps to Keep your Toes Safe", if you like:
1) A warning that stepping on toes can happen.
2) How to detect it when it happens (whether you're doing the stepping, being stepped on, or neither).
3) How to decrease the likelihood of it happening.
4) What to do if it does happen.
Now if you have a well-attuned group of people, they can do any kind of wild improvisational dancing and not step on each other's toes at all. They don't need any procedures or restrictions. It might be that a lot of games just assume this is the case and pretend that toe-stepping isn't an issue at all. It are games that assume you just know how to play, that might even assume there's just one way too play. There are also games that include some of the procedures, up to and including number 2 or 3, but leave you out in the water when toes do get stepped on anyway. And there are games that go all the way, and I guess those are the games you want.
It might actually be a fun execise to classify some games according to which procedures they inlude in their text. I postulate that Capes has them all, but I need to read the text again to be sure.
If you think that painting seascapes is great, then sure. If that's your thing then do it, no one can invalidate that. If a group says that painting seascapes sucks, it just means they don't like doing it. It's totally subjective and shouldn't devalue your appreciation of it. You just can't share that partical joy with them in a productive way. So find people who share your love and don't waste time with these bozos. I've been through hell and back to do the things I wanted, to live life like I saw fit, when no one around me appreciated any of it. It made me miserable but never eroded my resolve or sense of value. And I was proved right when I did finally find people compatible with me (never truly 100%, but good enough that it works).
Hey, this thread looks kinda finished to me. It was fun, Callan!
JoyWriter:
Callan, have you had your fill of this subject for the moment? Because if not I have some summarising observations, this list is not exclusive, but it's all stuff I've experienced:
1 You can learn to like something, by getting why someone else likes it and agreeing with it now you understand it. "Ok so you were trying to do ___, I can see why you might want to, lets do that!"
2 You can not like stuff much but do it for the sake of friends, as a favour to them, not in the economic or mafia sense, where they are in your debt, but just because you want to see them enjoy themselves. A lot of people GM for this reason, especially people GMing for kids.
3 Or you can do it as a mafia style favour! "I played so damn well in your game you better play well in mine" This rarely works, unless you are in the mafia.
4 You can like what someone does in a different way from how they like it, so when participating in it you prefer that part when it comes up.
5 Or you can just like something because it's exactly the thing you like, and the two (or more) of you are on exactly the same page. Awesome.
Some people just go for the last one, and decide that they want to pick people who think closely to themselves, at least on that subject. Some people go for the first, and play really different games in the hope they will expand their understanding of fun. Some people flicker between 2 and 3, not sure which they actually are going for.
I wouldn't try any accounting of accommodation. This just encourages being judgemental, and tolerance bidding: "I forgave you this many things" "Oh yeah, well I keep quiet about this many things". That's a rubbish game, I'd rather play an rpg! :P
The point is whether your satisfaction at their satisfaction is enough, again, unless you are in the mafia.
Actually that's not strictly true: If you play with the right people you can make a different version of that, where everyone tries to benefit the others play style. It's still not strictly accounted favours, but it is everyone working to "making another person awesome" and an expectation that that is the baseline. Still requires the right people, and an understanding of what everyone wants out of the game.
Now that last part requires the sort of harshness that Jasper was talking about; if you say "it's ok with me" then some people will be all like "awesome, we're running on 5" or someone else will be like "great I can run on 2 making this just what Callan wanted". But what if it's not ok for you, if it's bad for you but good for them, and your doing it just for them. Well then you can both be trying to run on the basis of 2, and missing, because your just not giving each other what the other wants! If you can be blunt and say "I want to do _this_ really, but I'm ok doing this because I enjoy you having fun", then that's a bit of pressure for them if they are built that way, or it's a great opportunity for better gaming. You may even find that they were doing it for you too, and are not that interested in it for themselves!
Now that is design talk, that's optimising the experience. That's the kind of stuff I was suggesting earlier in this thread. Building a conversation around the game about how to make it more fun for everyone, testing out the suggestions and finding out if someone else likes it better than the old stuff. So if you are interested in that kind of optimisation, do any of the above list categorise your attitude to the "rewardingness" of play?
(That stuff about the tree bending sounds like fuel for another thread, about "capturing the moment", "fruitful voids" and boardgame style rigour)
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[*] Previous page