Gamism and Narrativism: Mutually Exclusive
Patrice:
Quote from: Callan S. on July 01, 2009, 03:27:59 PM
I'm thinking 4E has the traditional bit of crappy text that says the GM can do anything. If you've agreed he has, then your handing him authority over the story (and 'anything' else) - you've made it 'his' story - then you resent him treating it as if it's his?
It actually doesn't Callan! D&D4 is the very first edition to make a break in these old time standards. The Dungeon Master's Guide saying that the DM should let go of his authority whenever possible, I consider a DM trying to enforce his version of the story as a very bad example of D&D4 DM. That doesn't make D&D4 a Gamist-Narrativist game, of course, but the direction's worth exploring.
Callan S.:
So he still has the authority? And who determines whenever it's possible to 'give it up'? The GM? For myself, I'd feel if I handed that to the GM it's absolutely no different from me handing him 'the GM can do anything' - the only countermeasure to his power, I've placed within his power. May as well say he can only use the authority when he wears a black hat - atleast then a well aimed dicebag or just plain grabbing it off his head and keeping it away, could happen! But I'll stop for now - as yet, I don't know if this helps Norm at all.
JMendes:
Ahey, :)
Quote from: Ayyavazi on July 01, 2009, 11:35:50 AM
is gamism mutually exclusive to narrativism?
There's an answer for this, but it depends exactly on how you are tackling the problem.
Between diverse people sitting at the same RPG table, every so often, they can coexist with great success. I wrote up an example of it, a few years back, using Legend of the Five Rings.
On the other hand, they can also clash hideously. I remember one particular HeroQuest where the guy with the Gamist priorities was visibly angry at the guy with the Narrativist priorities having spent his points "wrong", to invest on things which "aren't helping us beat the monster, now, and if it weren't for me saving mine, we would all be dead".
In my experience, extreme moments like either of those two are few and far between. Over the long haul, if there's people with clearly divergent priorities sitting at the table, the game will suffer.
As for having them coexist within a single system, there are designs out there where one can be used in support of the other, interchangeably even. I've played highly successful Capes sessions where that's happened. The thing is, I find it much, much easier for the session to be successful when all the players are aligned as to which one is central and which one is supporting.
Lastly, within any one role-player's mind, they can most certainly coexist. Speaking for myself, whenever I play TSoY or Solar System, for instance, I'm all about making choices and seeing the consequences pile on. (Naturally, the GM forcing me into any particular conflict is likely to be railroady.) But when I play 3.x/4e, I will throw myself with wild abandon at whatever challenges the GM wants to throw at me. (And here, it's not a matter of railroading, it's simple framing.)
Right. The stated question being out of the way, I'd like to take a crack at an assumptions that seems to be behing your post.
"Working together to craft interesting stories" is the staple of all successful role-playing, regardless of agenda. The only difference lies in what people find interesting about the stories. If everyone at the table is on board as to what is interesting, then everyone is likely to have an equal say on the decisions that actually matter, while everything else can be left in the hands of whoever has authority to frame stuff, which is usually the Game Master.
So, you've told us about a session that you found problematic. For contrast, I'd love to read about a session in your RPG past that you really loved. Tell us what happened there, and why you loved it.
Here's hoping to have helped, without having dogpiled it. :)
Cheers,
J.
Ron Edwards:
Everyone, please hold up on posting for a bit. I know this is pushing the limits of moderator authority, but as I'm the one who asked Norm to do this, it seems right to give him the reply I promised before things get too focused on details. My post is almost ready and after it's up, the free-for-all starts up again. Thanks!
Best, Ron
Ron Edwards:
Hi Norm,
I'm going to re-state what you wrote about your play-experience in Big Model terms, because only with that stuff in place can Creative Agenda be addressed. I have not lost sight of your basic questions and point, and will get to them in the end.
The first thing I see are a lot of judgments. I say this not to criticize you or say you shouldn't judge, but rather the opposite. Clearly you brought strong expectations or standards to what should be happening at the table, as you saw it, and they were met only marginally.
I'll try to paraphrase them and put them at the right level of the Big Model. (1) Social contract: put in effort, especially if you're the DM; be real if you want something, no "try" or expect to be treated as such if you aren't doing it. To summarize, as you saw it, the Social Contract should include genuine commitment from the person's best effort, and failure to do so should be called out. And also, these expectations were not being met.
(2) Exploration, specifically setting. You expected Setting not to be stupid, with stupid meaning "fantastic is OK, but not violating basic principles of human behavior or certain historical outcomes without at least some attempt at an explanation." This also reaches deeply into the Shared part of "Shared Imagined Space," because here was the DM, imposing X and Y and Z, and your judgment as a participant (i.e. you had to be imagining it too) was clearly not being valued. Whereas according to you, that judgment should necessarily be valued.
I started with these two not only because they are the outermost and next-most layers of the model, but also because they are linked by a very powerful point: if the group does not have "Let's play this game!" as part of the Social Contract, then there is no real door or connector between these two levels.
Many aspects of the breakdown you describe are rooted in these levels. Creative Agenda isn't a level, but rather a connector going through the levels, holding them together. Sometimes problems during play are based on clashing desires for the CA; sometimes they are due to problems with the levels themselves. I am pretty certain based on what you wrote that the Gamist CA was in at least workable, potentially strong shape for your group. The issue lies more with what content the CA was supposed to be working with, and the particular details of how that content was imposed onto play.
That claim of mine will not make sense unless I clarify a number of thing about Creative Agenda.
First, it is abundantly clear to me that you are completely at sea regarding the term Narrativism. It is definitely not "Story First." In fact, a great deal of the first part of my Narrativism: Story Now essay is built to clarify that point. For present purposes, in the play-account you're talking about, neither the story that was either mandated by the DM (as it happened) or generated more through player-character action (as you'd prefer) has anything to do with Narrativist play. It is simply and clearly best described as "the events which fictionally occurred" - the product of play in terms of fiction.
This doesn't invalidate your question, but I think it's absolutely necessary to re-frame your question into meaningful terms. You aren't asking about Gamist and Narrativist play at all. You're asking whether Gamist play can persist or occur when attention to story (as stated above in the simple/clear form) is occurring as well. The answer is yes, which I presume is good news. And also good news, that the attention in question is more enjoyable to you when you get to be involved rather than merely to watch someone impose it, is also compatible with this aim.
Quote
It seems to me that in a game such as D&D, (or many other systems and games for that matter) there could be gamist elements that keep the players interested on one level, while allowing them to work together to craft interesting stories. This way the challenge is there within the game world, and the story is shaped outside of it. Or is such a system one bitter gamer's pipe dream?
I think that one version of it is indeed a pipe dream, or worse, a delusion (pipe dreams are at least useful in many cases). See discussions of Exalted in particular (e.g., ). The fault of that version is that one person is "story man" and the others are "butt-kick kids," and neither has to pay attention to or respect what the other is doing.
However, that is not to say that Gamist play cannot happily occur upon a bed or foundation of a nifty story happening too. (Again, the presence or production of a "nifty story" does not connote or require Narrativist play.) You might find the thread [Rifts] GNS my session interesting, because although it is more about Simulationism and Gamism, the discussion was illuminated mainly by my distinction between Exploration-platform, or SIS, and Creative Agenda. I think that distinction will be useful to you as well.
So a more functional version of your idea is simply to have story events occur as part of the SIS, without the central thematic crisis elements of Narrativist play being involved to any great extent,* and with player decisions (about what characters do) being instrumental in what happens next, as things go along. That works fine!
Let's hold off on discussing Capes for a number of reasons. The main one is that I think you aren't firing on all (or possibly any) cylinders about Narrativism in the first place, and another is that we'll need some real play to talk about. I have not managed yet to play Capes in any context that I can call "actually playing." If someone has done this, as opposed to simply screwing around with click-and-lock and Drifted freeform, and wants to start a thread to address Gamist/Narrativist issues, then I'd like to see that.
Best, Ron
* If you would like to learn more about what Narrativist play is or looks like, then I recommend Frostfolk and GNS aggravation and [Frostfolk, ] Carrying on.
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