Art in mechanical design - has always been an awful idea?
Daniel B:
I think of game design like building architecture. The 'art' and the 'design' cannot (and should not) be expressed separately, or either the building collapses or fails to achieve it's artistic goals. You cannot start with a beautiful building, only worrying about the mechanical structure at the end, nor should you start with a neutrally-designed, purely functional building, only to throw art on top of it at the end and expect it still look pretty.
I believe it necessary to work in the intersecting domain of both, in tandem.
Daniel
Caldis:
How does something like Hero Quest fit in with this? Where attributes can be anything and they're all equal as long as you can find a way to apply them? So if you were playing Rifts using a Heroquest like system the Juicers "rapid machine gun fire" is equal to the Psi Stalkers "Pack of mutant dogboys" (sorry it's been awhile since I've seen rifts dont remember the correct terms).
Callan S.:
Hi Michael,
Quote from: Vulpinoid on July 09, 2009, 11:50:39 PM
Conversely, if you design a game with a single vision in mind and produce art and mechanisms simultaneously from the core vision, then I don't see a reason why the two halves have to cause issues with one another.If something doesn't feel right with respect to the core vision, then chuck it. If the art and flavour of the world doesn't support the premise then it should have a damned good justification for staying in place. If a mechanism doesn't give the desired results, then the same applies. As soon as you compromise the core vision, your lost...and the problems start.
There doesn't seem to be a reference here to it being a group activity and maintaining an equal number of turns (or certain amount of turns). I mean, "If the art and flavour of the world doesn't support the premise" - the premise is just more art/fiction. Your talking soley in terms of what art supports what art - which is fine if your only looking at art. And a mechanism that doesn't give the desired results - which desired results? The results the artistic muse wants, or the group activity desire wants? Atleast to me, your just addressing what art supports what art - which is something to think about. But atleast to me your haven't addressed the issue of this thread.
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If the two players are working with different goals in mind, then why are they playing in the same game. Firstly, I think the GM should have indicated to the players what sort of game they were intending to run. Secondly, if the GM did explain their game concept, then any players who created an unsuitable character should shut up and quit their bitching.
I think this is defaulting back to 'it's the GM's fault', which I mentioned earlier (with 'it's the players fault' not being much different, as the GM is a player).
How do you take it?
1. The GM and players just play the game, as much as they might play a boardgame without adding/designing anything in mid play. They just follow procedure, even if that procedure (as written by the author) is ass. Eg, it asks the GM to produce some fiction that will also affect turn order - he does so and it drops someone out of play for an hour. Is the GM at fault for following the procedure, or the author for having handed such an option to the GM where he asked him to produce art rather than play human resource management? (Or perhaps no one is at fault - this art in the mechanics situation is always a lose/lose - but I'm spoiling the example now).
2. The GM (and prolly to an extent, players) are acting as designers and simply drawing on the material in the game book, to construct something. It's a design toolbox.
3. Something else?
I'll say I'm not really talking about #2, as I'm talking about taking responsiblity as game author for the entire end experience (not for small, singular parts of it that the group might use). Talking about what the GM should have done but didn't, or what the players should have done, but didn't, is just shifting blame onto them. This thread is about the games (original) author keeping that responsiblity.
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If you work to a core vision and goal, develop art and mechanisms from that vision and aiming toward your intended goal. Create images that point toward your intentions, develop text that gives a feel for your aim, write rules that show someone how to achieve the type of experience you are trying to share. Good Design.
Point toward - instead of the author just implementing it? A feel for my aim - instead of the author just implementing it? I think you are talking about #2 from above? And I think the RPG market is glutted with toolbox 'games'. Indeed, getting off topic for a moment, if they're being the designer, why would they care about the authors intent or aim "Here was my intent or aim - but I didn't bother implementing it - do that for me". Though perhaps in terms of creative denial that makes sense. Where the group makes something then says that's exactly how to play the game (even though another group with the exact same book play it in a way that's incompatable and say exactly the same thing - that they play the game exactly as intended).
Okay, semi off topic, semi on - I'll clarify that I'm not talking about supporting creative denial in this thread.
Callan S.:
Quote from: Jasper Flick on July 10, 2009, 02:40:31 AM
Callan, I think your definition of art here is too broad. It appears to range from art products, to what emerges during play, to how to make sure everyone has a good time. You're also specifically focusing on a specific mechanic: turn-based combat, but is this just an example, or is it your main point of interest?
I've probably blured it with that two hour example. The number of attacks/turns per melee is art baked into mechanics. The "attack skill" and "damage" are art baked into mechanics. You might be familiar with the turn order dysfunction of 'whiffing' where essentially your turn comes and you affect absolutely nothing. You effectively didn't have a turn. The idea/design goal of it being a group activity has been compromised. Turn based combat is just one area I'm interested in in terms of this topic. But if you want to focus on it for clarities sake, feel free to focus.
My example of the GM deciding you sit out for an hour isn't such a great example, but it does show the idea of turns/a group activity being compromised. Can I adjust the example? Say your PC is classed as 'unconcious', and your out for an hour of gameplay. That's baking art into the mechanics. Why bake art in and leave turn order integrity up to the end user/GM interpretation of 'unconcious'? I know traditionally we all blame the GM in this case, but he only had the capacity because the author gave it to him. The author was facing a trade off between the fiction as he saw it and turn order. A trade off that I'm suggesting, is always a lose/lose situation.
Actually I'll water that down - if you don't concern yourself with turn order and just sort of make the game as you see the fiction should go, then it's win for art, complete lose for turn order. By chance turn order might be in there, but it's on the monkeys flying out of my butt principle.
Callan S.:
Quote from: Caldis on July 10, 2009, 09:59:19 AM
How does something like Hero Quest fit in with this? Where attributes can be anything and they're all equal as long as you can find a way to apply them? So if you were playing Rifts using a Heroquest like system the Juicers "rapid machine gun fire" is equal to the Psi Stalkers "Pack of mutant dogboys" (sorry it's been awhile since I've seen rifts dont remember the correct terms).
Well that's an interesting question! Because if attributes, by the book, can be anything, then there's no art prebaked into the mechanic. There's just a blank field (like a spread sheets blank field) where an attribute can go and numerical connections to that (though the idea it's an 'attribute' is some fiction, but that might matter about as much as 'coin' in universalis - ie, not at all). So that's avoiding the fiction in mechanics issue.
In terms of them all being equal as long as you can find a way to apply them? Well, mechanically equal, so again there's no fiction baked into mechanics that makes one/some numerically superior to others.
In terms of actually applying them, this gets into the fictional restraints either of the player or the group and what restraint he/they put on an attributes use. But that's all a result of people in the group/group, it's not that one attribute has better stats because the authors artistic muse says so. So again it avoids fiction in the mechanics issue.
So yeah, good question! It sounds like, atleast in terms of attributes, hero quest is fictionless mechanics like universalis is. Also, atleast in terms of spiritual attributes, riddle of steel has *relatively* fictionless mechanics (they are named stuff like "Love" and "Destiny". But there's no art baked in that says one is more powerful numerically than the others, so it may not matter in terms of this thread)
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