[DiTV] Jedi in the Vineyard
Narmical:
On the dark side as trait vs dark side as relationship, certianly it would be apropreate to use the deamon rules. Maping those rules onto the source material, the emoror would have at least one physical manifistation.
I do think using a relationship is more apropreat in this case, even if you don't use the full blown deamon rules all the time. According to the movies, and to the offical RPGs calling on the dark side of the foce puts your relationship to the force as part of the conflict. The idea is presented that the more you give in, the more you want to give in the future.
It dawns on me that the dark side sits somewhere in beween the concepts of a relationship with a sin, and a relationship with a deamon.
Quote
Of course, there is the risk that the Sith will respond in kind and the Jedi will suffer fallout appropriate to the details of the Sith's raises; but the Sith opponent will likely resort to the Dark Side irrespective of whether the Jedi PC does or not.
I was talking about the situation where the sith escalates in response. The GMing rules of dogs instruct one to push the players to escalate, to to have the gm do the escalating himself. Although it may be appropriate to have the sith jump directly to using the dark side.in a particular situation, i think its far more interesting and far more in the spirt of the game, to alow the conflict to escalate naturally.
mike_the_pirate:
I'm impressed with the astute quality of narmical's suggestion. That's why he's my co-host.
henebry:
I'm in midst of planning a Jedi-themed Dogs game right now, so I really appreciate your detailed ideas here, Salar.
I particularly like Salar's ideas about Dark Side fallout. In a conflict where a player brings in the Dark Side, any experience gained is necessarily experience involving a stronger grasp of (and stronger temptation to use) the Dark Side.
As for how to handle escalation to the Dark Side, Narmical's suggestion doesn't quite make sense to me. You can do deadly damage with a lightsaber or blaster, so it's strange to think of d10 fallout as only falling to Jedi who have escalated to the Dark Side.
Moreover, it's worth noting that in the Core Rules when you escalate from talk all the way up to guns, you typically don't get any Stat dice for that final escalation—just the Gun dice. That's still tempting because a big gun gives you d8+d4. But by contrast it's hard to see how a Jedi with "I Fear the Dark Side" 1d4 would be tempted to roll that trait in.
Here's what I'm planning to do:
1) rename Stats so that they resonate with Star Wars ideology (think Yoda's "Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.") Since I'll be running the game for kids age 12, I'm also trying to avoid words like "Acuity":
Acuity becomes Speed, Body becomes Strength, Heart becomes Passion, and Will becomes Discipline. Those last two are especially crucial, since passion is a path to the Dark Side and Discipline is the essence of the Jedi Order.
2) boldly change a core rule: Jedi can tap their Passion Stat a second time, but only if they also roll in their "I ____ the Dark Side" trait at the same time. After the conflict, the Jedi's Passion and Dark Side would be rolled in with Fallout as per Salar's Dark Side Fallout rule (which is really more of a rule for Dark Side experience).
Narmical:
Quote from: henebry on January 12, 2010, 12:47:57 PM
As for how to handle escalation to the Dark Side, Narmical's suggestion doesn't quite make sense to me. You can do deadly damage with a lightsaber or blaster, so it's strange to think of d10 fallout as only falling to Jedi who have escalated to the Dark Side.
Moreover, it's worth noting that in the Core Rules when you escalate from talk all the way up to guns, you typically don't get any Stat dice for that final escalation—just the Gun dice. That's still tempting because a big gun gives you d8+d4. But by contrast it's hard to see how a Jedi with "I Fear the Dark Side" 1d4 would be tempted to roll that trait in.
I will try and clarify my idea on escalation.
In the movies the dark side is always described as a quick path to power. One that is tempting but dangerous. That is what I am trying to mimic with my escalation system. Firstly in plain DiTV when you escalate you get to roll 2 stats, provided you haven't rolled them already. The stat pairs are made in such a way that if you escalate gradually from talking to guns the final escalation to guns you do not get to roll any stats. But if you were to jump there, you do intact roll stats.
The conflict rules in DiTV are to resolve a conflit of wills, not to find out who gets hurt. The latter being how DnD works. As such dying from a gun fight's d10 fallout is an unintended consequence. Something that happen that you didnt nessicaly intend. Let me give an example.
"Brother Tom's wife is not joining you for dinner in the dining room, you raise issue with this practice"
In this conflict, whats at stake is "Does Brother Tom's wife join you at the table". If you decide to pull your gun on Brother Tom, he could die, but at no time was that your goal.
Translating that to the Jedi, having the light side of the force do d8 fallout confers control onto that power. Never in million years will a Jedi, using only the light side of the force accidentally kill someone. Sure, a Jedi using only the light side of the foce could set sates of "Killing the Sith Lord in battle" and if the Jedi wins, then an intentional death occurs.
The dark side on the other hand by being the highest escalation level is thus the last resort of a desperate Jedi. You will find that the situation will come up that something very important to the Jedi is at stake, and he has escalated but not yet to the dark side and is out of options. The choice is "use the dark side or fail". This will happen because Vincent designed the game to force these choices. The Dark Side is no more deadly. Using only pushing around you could set the sakes "Do i kill the sith lord" and if your opponent gave, the sith lord would die. The important part of giving the dark side d10 is the danger of the dark side. Both when its used by the players and when used against the player. If the stakes do not put the players lives in danger, once the oponoed escalates to the dark side, suddently. the life is in danger.
Also the point of guns (and by extension the dark side) give a bonus d4 to the conflict, is not to make them more powerful, but to make them more likely to cause fallout. the more d4s you roll, the more low numbers your roll, the more low numbers, the more often you will need 3 dice to see, and thus the more fallout is generated. When the guns or the dark side comes out, fall out is more likely to happen because of that d4.
Here is the important thing to think about when modifying the escalation system. The levels are not about increasing power, but about desperation vs downside. Each time you escalate you get another chance to get your way, but if your opponent escalates back, your in grater danger of fallout. The final level is also more subtle. The idea of it is "do i really want to soot and possibly kill someone over this". The last level is dangerous to the person using in because of that mandatory d4. Something unintended will happen when the guns are drawn. This situation must be preserved by the changes in order for the game to function correctly.
Ask your self, in Star Wars, are Jedi reluctant to use there Lightsabers because something bad might happen? Do Jedi think to them selves "is this conflict worth pulling my lightsaber"? Or is it "Is breaking the tyrant of the Empire worth giving in to the Dark Side"?
Gareth_Lazelle:
Maybe dark-side fallout dice (for the opposition - not you) could be determined in a similar way to rituals? That is, the fallout depends upon the specific action taken,
So perhaps...
Using force-telekineses to hurl objects at your foe: D6 (i.e.: equiv. to physical fallout)
Using force-lightening to attack your foe: D10 (or even D12 perhaps?)
etc... etc...
I like the idea of using a stat again at the cost of taking dark-side fallout with a bunch of extra dice, you'll need to be careful that the cost doesn't reduce the temptation for a player to use the powers too much though! And maybe also reduce the ability of dark side fallout to wound (maybe roll it as a separate pool, with its own experience/fallout options?)
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