GNS and Hierarchy
Ayyavazi:
Ok, there's a lot to address here. First off, thanks for the clarification Moreno.
Now, on to the objections. Alan, I will try to use the proper terms from here on out. As for whether I am trying to add to the theory, or merely exploring a parallel one, I am unsure right now. I like to think that I am adding, which is what I am trying to do, but parallelism seems possible.
Now, lets talk about the agendas also being techniques. This is probably where a lot of my confusion lies (yes, you have all been saying this for a good long time). If the agendas are also techniques, separate from the agendas, and all of the definitions are correct as they stand, then I am wrong. But, I love checking your premises (in this case, I mean the things we assume to be true in order to build an argument). This assumes that the definitions AS THEY ARE are correct. I dispute this. To me, when you tell me the techniques and the agendas look the same in the small moment but not in the big moment, I get confused. Maybe its like squares and rectangles. Its a one-way compatibility. Or, maybe what we assume about CA is wrong.
What I mean is this. Every technique (GNS-wise) will be used in a game in varying degrees. Everyone seems to say that these individual techniques are not the agenda. There is just some overlap. But the overlap is where I think we need to focus. If the techniques are used, they must be being rewarded. Maybe not on a large scale, but on a small one for sure. People wouldn't bother putting a fictional wrapping on their game if it wasn't worth it. They would just play a miniatures game or other board game, depending on their tastes. The fact that a technique mirroring "Right to Dream" is used in Step On Up and Story Now says to me that that element of Right to Dream is rewarded, and further, it says to me that it is part of the agenda, however small. In essence, it is part of the hierarchy. I know you all keep saying that you can't observe GNS at the technique level, and so this idea is wrong, plain and simple. What I am asking to be examined is this: What if you can? You have all given me some very good analogies, and some very good examples from actual play. These examples are all very good indicators that I am wrong, as long as the premises you are using are correct. If the premises are incorrect, then though the argument may be accurate, it is still invalid. (I hope I'm not confusing anyone with these terms. If I am, let me know)
So, here is what I am trying to say. Instead of proceeding from your premises (GNS is a one-agenda only deal, Techniques cannot be show agenda on their own, one agenda operating at a time, and so forth), change a premise and explore from there. This would be an exploration of an argument, rather than a series of proofs for your premise.
Try to envision it this way. For those of you who have taken a geometry course, imagine you are doing a geometric proof. You have a list of premises, and an end result you are working toward. If you change a premise, you either invalidate the proof (it becomes impossible to solve) or you must find a different way to get to the same conclusion.
In this case, the conclusion is a question-answer combination. With your given premises (as I listed them above) they logically work their way down to the answers you continue to give me to my question. When you change the premise (because I am trying to explore whether the premise is wrong or not), you must then change the way you think about it, because the old rules no longer apply.
I hope that clears up what I am trying to do, and explains why I am not simply saying, "Ah, your answers are correct! The light has come on!" For me, you seem to still be progressing from flawed premises. And touting out all of the proofs you have gives me nothing, because they are all proof derived from the same premises I am disputing. To put it another way, imagine you are a non-believer in God and you speak to a believer about the Word of God. They say, "This Bible is the work of God." You say, "How?" "Well, he inspired people to write it." "But there is no God" "Well of course there is! Can't you see the Bible I am holding? Its proof he exists because He wrote it!"
*I am not trying to ignite a religious argument. I am trying to give an analogy for the problem I believe I am facing
So, hopefully this will work in my favor and I will be able to understand where this is all going. As for people having hierarchies and that being incompatible with long-term play, that sounds a tragic diagnoses, don't you think? The whole point is that when you identify what a person's agenda is in play, you can match up to it or find other people that share your goals and tastes, and ensure you get the most enjoyment out of the hobby. What you seemed to just say is that if a person has an agenda, they can find others like them, but if they have a hierarchy, they are screwed because there aren't enough people to play with that would have their exact hierarchy (or something similar enough to play with minimal difficulty). Is that correct?
And about childish problems, yeah, its childish in one way. Mastering the conflicting desires is an adult thing to do, but this isn't supposed to be a psychological argument about whether it is correct to do that. However, isn't being frustrated and "mastering it" as a means to continue play called dysfunctional or incoherent play? Because that is the point at which people aren't getting the maximum amount of fun they could be. Sure, they could master it, or they could find people who share their goals. Which is easier?
Thanks again for everyone's input. I am really enjoying the discussions, and learning a great deal about GNS.
Cheers,
--Norm
Jasper Flick:
I'd like to illuminate a possible disconnect that might be going on and which could breed hostility.
I just like to point out that the "premises" Ayyavazi proposes to discard didn't come from nowhere, badly articulated as they may be. There's a huge body of written material that preceded them. Take a look at RPG Theory, GNS Model Discussion and a load of APs that came after that.
So some people might be assuming things are unfounded premises which are easily set aside, while others consider them conclusions derived from years of research and study. Some people might consider Ayyavazi an upstart, like someone who insists that Pi could be a rational number if you just let go of all mathematical theory that's been established, which he by the way didn't bother to extensively study himself. In turn, Ayyavazi might consider others conservative old men, stuck in their ivory tower.
I'm not saying this is the case, I just warn that it might be lurking underwater.
By all means, continue the discussion.
Ayyavazi:
Jasper, Thank you!
You have pinpointed something I have been wanting to address but not been able to due to my own lack of focus. I do not consider myself an upstart. I personally recognize that the theories involved here have been developed from years of research, and work to some extent (otherwise they wouldn't be theories that see regular use). I have read all of the articles Ron has posted, and am working through all of the many threads he has recommended. So I am studying to the capacity I am able in theory, and having a couple of discussions as well on this forum to help answer my questions and put forward my own ideas.
I'm not trying to say anyone is in an ivory tower or any of that, though I do suspect that some of these ideas are so personal to those who had a hand in making them that letting go and shifting perspectives is at best difficult. Whether that is a good thing or not remains to be seen. Thanks again Jasper, and everyone for your input thus far. Lets make this a good discussion.
Cheers,
--Norm
Anders Larsen:
I think that the confusion between agendas and techniques, is probably the thing most people struggle with when it come to GNS theory, but, actually, they are two very different things. It is always hard to know what makes sense for other people, but the explanation that helped me understand this was: Techniques are how you make input into the game, agenda is what what experience you want to get out of the game.
If you think about a painter as an analogy for this (sorry, but I do not know how else to explain this). For a painter techniques are what brushes he use, what paint he use, how he make the single strokes, how he think about perspective, and other stuff he do to put something on the canvas. He may enjoy many of these thing, and he may have passionate discussion about why oil is better than acrylic, but these things are in the end not the reason for why he is an artist. The reason for why he do this is that he what to create a certain experience with his finished painting, and what experience he is after is what is equivalent to a creative agenda. Of course a painter has some favorite technique he normally use, but that is not what will determined what experience he try to create with his work.
In a rpg the canvas is the Shared Imagined Space, this is very imported to understand properly. The SIS is what the players has agreed are part of the game her and now. So the SIS is actively kept alive between the imagination of multiple people.
So this would be like you have multiple artists trying to paint on the same canvas at the same time. And not only that, they could modify what the other artist already had put on the canvas. If one of the artists wanted to paint something super realistic, an other wanted to make caricature, and one wanted to make something completely abstract, you can see that non of this would probably be satisfied with the finished painting - even thought all of them agreed on which technique it was best to use.
So you see. Techniques are used to slowly build something in the SIS (to stroke for stroke build the painting on the canvas). And over time the SIS will build to something that will create an interesting experience for the players. To build something interesting out of the SIS most be the reason why we play roleplaying game - so that is the creative agenda of playing. What techniques we use to build the SIS to get that agenda, is not so important.
I hope all this makes sense. If it don't, just ignore it
- Anders
FredGarber:
I think that there is a logical fallacy lurking under the surface here, linked around the false premise: "Why you roleplay is the same as How You Have Fun roleplaying." I do not believe that is necessarily true.
If I am satisfying my Creative Agenda, I am having fun playing the game. <TRUE>
If I am having fun, I am satisfying my Creative Agenda <NOT NECESSARILY TRUE>
If you are dead, you cannot move your legs. <TRUE>
If you cannot move your legs, you are dead <FALSE>
When I look at putting Forge Theory into Practice, my goal is to design or play a game that is never NOT Fun. I can't predict the moments of Fun that are going to occur. I wouldn't want to. However, I can make sure that my Reward Cycle aligns with my Creative Agenda, making sure that I have a consistant baseline of Fun, even if every moment isn't a Moment of Awesome. All I can do is present a fertile garden for Moments of Awesome and hope they grow.
-Fred
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