GNS and Hierarchy
Marshall Burns:
Quote from: Ayyavazi on August 13, 2009, 05:43:06 AM
Now, lets talk about the agendas also being techniques. This is probably where a lot of my confusion lies (yes, you have all been saying this for a good long time). If the agendas are also techniques, separate from the agendas, and all of the definitions are correct as they stand, then I am wrong.
Hang on here, we need a crowbar separation.
Step on Up is not a Technique. Competition is a Technique. Competition must be present (in some form, to some degree) for Step on Up to be occurring, but its presence does not mean that Step on Up is occurring. For an example, my game Super Action Now! is built for (and works for) Right to Dream, but makes heavy use of competition. (Which, among other things, makes it quite innovative in the world of RTD design as far as its set of Techniques goes, if I may brag for a moment.)
When people say that "Techniques can't show CA on their own," what they mean is that no SINGLE Technique (e.g., competition) can indicate the Creative Agenda. However, a specific combination of Techniques in play will support a given CA, or it won’t.
For an example, SAN! again. The competition + TILT! rules + Character model + resolution combine to support Right to Dream play in which the players create, develop, and enjoy a Situation with loads of crazy-ass Color, by establishing wacky characters, juxtaposing them with each other and off-the-wall situational elements, and letting them run amok, while the players are expected and permitted to fuck with each other’s characters at every opportunity.
To say that competition is rewarded in SAN! would be true, but misleading. Competition in SAN! is rewarded only in the context of the other Techniques, all of which must be applied for the game to deliver the experience and provide the tools it promises.
Am I making sense? It's always hard for me to tell.
-Marshall
Callan S.:
Is there any goal being sought here? GNS is a means to an end, like a hammer or chisel - or perhaps a compass. You don't argue hammer, you don't argue chisel. You use whatever gets you to your goals. Right from the start I only considered GNS as to whether it was helpful or not. Even if it seems helpful, doesn't mean you can't discard the tool five minutes from now. Measure GNS theory by how much your getting to your goals as opposed to if you weren't using it. And even if it rates highly, that doesn't mean you have to 'agree' with it or even can agree with it - you don't agree with hammer, you don't agree with chisel. You don't agree GNS, you use it.
It seems, and I may genuinely be wildly incorrect, that GNS theory is being discussed here without any reference to trying to achieve some goal?
Ayyavazi:
Thanks again everyone. You have all contributed meaningfully to this as far as I am concerned.
So, let me re-state some of my assumptions so that we can be clear about where I stand (and why).
1. Creative Agenda is not player based (that is, a player does not have a creative agenda or a default setting. a player can want a certain creative agenda and actively or passively pursue it, but the agenda can never be a defining characteristic of a person as person)
2. Creative Agenda is not at the beginning, middle, or end of play, it IS play. Everything within the scope of play, from start to finish (and even beyond) is Creative Agenda in action.
3. A game system cannot have a Creative Agenda any more than a person. It can support one agenda over others, and it can try to support more than one, but in doing the latter will mostly likely only promote incoherency at best, dysfunctional play at worst.
4. Techniques (of which each Creative Agenda is also an individual technique) are separate from agenda, but a group of them will point to a supported agenda. Techniques promoted by system will point to one agenda, but because agenda is realized only in play, and never from outside of it (in the sense that you cannot accurately predict how a system will perform for every group), techniques used in play will determine the agenda that is in practice.
5. (I do not personally share this assumption, but it is common enough to be involved in the discussion) Inidividual creative agendas are mutually exclusive. A game, examined in all of its wonder, will always fall under one creative agenda based on the techniques being used. This is both due to definition (the definitions of each GNS agenda are written in such a way that they are mutually exclusive) and to practical reasons (if some members pursue one agenda within a given game, and others pursue a different agenda, play will be incoherent or dysfunctional).
This is how I understand GNS so far. these are the basic assumptions I am bringing in to the discussion. Here is where the rub is for me.
Assumption #6: No group can pursue multiple creative agendas within a single game session (even if they are completely united on wanting to do so).
Now, I assume that the reason GNS works is because when a group pursues a given agenda uniformly, they maximize their fun and minimize or eliminate any incoherent or dysfunctional play. That is, they eliminate those un-fun moments where they suspect the other player(s) "just don't get it" However, it seems that because of the definitions forcing exclusivity on agenda (the point of play definitions), having a group dedicated to pursuing, say, Right to Dream and Story Now uniformly cannot achieve coherent play, even if they are all using the same techniques in the same ways. At least, this is what I have been told: Hybrid play is impossible.
Now, since no one is going to remove the exclusivity from the definitions of creative agenda, new Creative Agendas (if they are possible) need to be defined that allow for the play that I am envisioning, and which I sincerely believe is possible.
But this topic is about Hierarchy, not hybrid play or new agendas. This topic puts forth the notion that indeed, no person can be pursuing all agendas (or even two) at the same time due to the necessity of preference. When a choice is presented that calls any two agendas into conflict (which will mostly happen at the meta-game level, but not necessarily only there), the player must choose one to support and one to deny (if only temporarily, and assuming the choices themselves are mutually exclusive). I think of it a lot like the Halting Problem from Alan Turing. So, instead, each player must have a hierarchy within their mind (and it can change from session to session, or even moment to moment) of which agenda holds the most weight for them for this game for this moment. Even if all players agreed to a hierarchy ahead of time from which they would never deviate, they would still run into problems.
The problem would be that if any choice ever brought the agendas into question, like above, they would of course follow their hierarchy. But the fact would remain that most likely, they do not all share exactly the same goals moment to moment, and so may disagree with their pre-existing and predetermined hierarchy. As a result, there can exist a dis-connect within the play experience. This occurrence is extremely unlikely in single agenda play (or so it seems) because people tend to have certain preferences, and matching those preferences along one axis (the single creative agenda) is easier. Effectively think of GNS like trying to group people together. If you want to find all the men(your creative agenda of choice) in the world, you have a large section of the overall human population to draw from. If you want all the blue-eyed men in the world (a specific agenda, and certain unique aspects of it set to one value or another, such as gamist dials) you will have a smaller group. As you apply more filters and get more specific, your potential play group that will not experience this disconnect shrinks, and rapidly.
I believe that different agendas exist than these classic three. I also believe that agenda hierarchy can be used to achieve the same play experience that single agenda play strikes. But I also believe that it is (at the very least) currently impossible to find even one other person (let alone an entire group) that perfectly matches not only your preferred hierarchy, but also your exact tendencies of when to switch that hierarchy. As a result, this play is not currently possible, Its not because it can't work in theory, but because finding the people that match up as perfectly as you need them to is simply impossible at this time in history.
Now, I know some of you will argue that trying to have hybrid agendas is like asking for all participants to be both Male and Female (a strict impossibility, with certain bizarre exceptions) at the same time. You might also argue that hierarchy calls for Women at the top, followed by a filter for men, which can't happen, since all women are by definition not men, and so no individual will be both (again with certain bizarre exceptions). If this is true (which to me the verdict is still out on), then I fully understand that what I am saying is totally and completely wrong. But please refrain from saying the following: "But it is true!" It contributes nothing to the conversation. Giving a good reason or example of why it is true will contribute meaningfully to the discussion.
So, I proceed from the assumption that new agendas and agenda hierarchy are possible, but not with our current population size, or with our current toolbox (the techniques we have discovered and know how to use, such as chisels and hammers. Perhaps when we learn about and how to use laser blasters, we will have something new to talk about).
So, now to the WHY. Why is this important? What goal am I pursuing? The same goal that GNS pursues: Defining creative agendas and their application as a means to influence game design in such a way as to maximize fun for those who choose to play the game designed. Of course, with what I wrote above (that we lack the people and the tools), this seems like a fools errand. How can we try to design a game for a population that doesn't yet exist and that must possess tools we don't currently even conceive of? I like to think this is what it means to be on the cutting edge. I want to invent these tools, and I believe everyone else here does too. I want to bring about the play experience I am seeking, in which I play with individuals so matched up to what I want that I don't need to restrict myself to an agenda that doesn't do everything I want it to. And I want to have a system that promotes exactly the agenda I want so that those who play it play the same way as I do. Yeah, its selfish. But in the end, if we accomplish any of what I want to, we will have vastly improved what is available to everyone else, including generations of gamers to come.
So, any thoughts?
Thanks again,
Cheers
--Norm
Adam Dray:
I'm trying to understand what you mean by a new creative agenda. Do you mean your prioritized hybrid, like "primary Narrativism, secondary Gamism"? Let's use the notation N>G for that, but realize it means a single, hypothetical creative agenda, not two different agendas.
Compare pure Narrativism (N) to Narrativism-with-Gamism (N>G). How are they different? Isn't this just N with "gamist" techniques tossed in? Assuming this N>G thing exists, how do players embrace it differently than pure N? Given that all the players at the table want N>G, during play, how does it affect their creative choices in the various layers of the Big Model? Given a handful of creative choices, don't they just choose the Techniques and Ephemera that point at Narrativism? Where does the "G" ever come into play? Maybe there are "gamist" techniques, but I don't see them connecting layers together the way techniques pull a Creative Agenda together.
Ayyavazi:
Thanks Adam,
This is exactly the kind of thing I want to explore. My problem is that as far as I am aware, all of the technique glossaries are outdated, so I don't have all of the terminology down pat. Either way, I need some actual play examples and for them to be dissected. The problem is I haven't played an RPG in months and my memory is just fuzzy enough that I am afraid I would be changing the memory slightly in favor of supporting my view, making it invalid as a choice of actual play. Plus, I have little memory of the moment to moment interactions, which is where techniques and ephemera are most noticeable. I only remember things in broad strokes. So, what I need first is to learn about the techniques and ephemera in up to date language, and then I can address this. Does anyone have any threads they recommend?
Cheers,
--Norm
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