Example Games to help me learn GNS
Ayyavazi:
Hello all,
I have been trying to understand GNS for some time now, and am looking to read games that support different agendas (whether explicitly, or simply by coincidence). So, I want to know what games are good examples of the different agendas.
I already understand that there are different ways to play different agendas. Gamism has its dials, Sim has its different explorations, and Nar has its different approaches to Premise. So, if anyone would be so kind as to give me some games they think are a good example of a system supporting a specific play agenda (and its specific styles if possible), that would be great.
Thanks again,
--Norm
Moreno R.:
Hi Norm!
Something I learned in these last years, is that the "teaching text" has to be tailored to the reader. For example, the game that made me realize, at last, what all these people were talking about when they talked about "narrativism" was Dogs in the Vineyard. For a player/GM with my past experiences in gaming, it really seemed like the author did know me personally and said what I needed to read. So, for a long time, I always pushed Dogs in the Vineyard as the text of choice for this. But, after I began to get some feedback from people I gave this advice, I discovered that there is a rather big category of people who simply "don't get dogs", that get stuck into trying to do "what the GM want" o that can't get his/her head about what they should do in the game, or that get stuck in a big pool of murk about some strange interpretations of simple phrases like "say yes or roll the dice" or "your conscience is your own".
So, I don't think that a single title would be good for everybody. We could write a list of "good" titles, for the people who will have the patience and perseverance to try every one of them when the first one wasn't enough, or we could try to get a more precise advice if you talk about your groups experiences and what is the parts of GNS you have more difficulty at this moment.
Ayyavazi:
I think getting a good list together would be a good starting point, since I enjoy reading game texts immensely, and often buy them just to read and own them, even though I will most likely never have a chance to play them.
Adam Dray:
The best way to understand GNS is to PLAY some games. Go play some of the games that classically represent certain schools of thought. Play them more than once. Play them exactly by the rules. Do not drift the rules.
Reading games isn't going to help you understand GNS/creative agenda that much. It's hard to understand how a game plays by reading it, especially if you haven't experienced the use of certain techniques, or certain combinations of techniques. Much of this stuff is an emergent effect. Ron and Vincent and Mike and Ralph might have finely honed skills for predicting how a set of rules might play out, but they'll be the first to go for Actual Play.
Here are some recommendations:
Gamist: D&D 4E*
Narrativist: Dogs in the Vineyard, Sorcerer*
Simulationist: Universalis, GURPS*, Dread
Just categorizing games is a path fraught with danger. These games /strongly support/ those creative agendas. They don't force them. Also, I might have chosen games poorly, especially in the Sim arena. Let's not start a flame war over GNS categories for games, people. If there is any debate over a game's CA-support classification, let's just remove it from the recommendation list and suggest another.
There are free quickstart rules for the *starred games available on John Kim's Free RPGs site.
Realize that by saying you'll never have a chance to play these games, you're admitting a certain "armchair theorist" nature. Keep that in mind as you debate with people who have actually played lots of games you haven't. I'm not saying your ideas aren't valued here. Just that you have strong opinions about stuff you have likely never experienced. If you want to try some games out and cannot because of access to other players, there are games run online via Skype and other means. We can probably hook you up.
Ayyavazi:
Thanks Adam,
I agree with you about playing actual games. If I had the luxury of time and a group, I would play every game I own, and often. Given the circumstances, I live vicariously through the actual play threads. Lol. Anyhow, as for what you have on your list, I have read some GURPS (there's way too much there for me to read all of it right away), and have not read anything from Universalis and Dread. I'll have to look into those. The rest I have copies of and have read. Dogs seems a remarkable game I would love to play, I just haven't had the chance.
Thanks again and lets expand this so other people can use it. Maybe we could even clean up the topic by remaking it and have it stickied somewhere.
Cheers,
-Norm
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