[Solar System] Modelling WtF Werewolves - Shapeshifting & Regeneration
Eero Tuovinen:
Coincidentally I have aggravated Harm in my new TSoY book as well, so I know exactly how I do the silver thing. Aggravated Harm is marked as such on the Harm track, is not associated with any Pools and does not settle down after an extended conflict like Harm normally does. A character has to make some sort of healing check to transform aggravated Harm into normal injuries before it can be feasibly healed by natural healing.
I'd probably allow regeneration checks during extended conflicts as long as the cost was similar to the cost of natural healing - more than one Pool point, definitely.
For Essence, I'm not vincing; I could use a similar mechanic myself. However, I do recognize that the balance problems you're having with the system are partially due to how you've included a lot of mechanical stuff that has been introduced wholesale and provided for the player characters free of Advance cost. This way of introducing crunch obviates the normal, organic balance SS mechanics have, so it's no wonder if you encounter all sorts of small balance issues as things settle down.
The way you describe Essence makes it sound like it'd work in a simpler and more elegant manner as a normal Effect: whenever the character participates in essence-gathering just have him check some suitable Ability to see how much Essence he holds and can expend later on.
Klaus_Welten:
This thread is going right into my favorites. Eero, your are my heero. :-P
Courage75:
Quote from: Eero Tuovinen on August 25, 2009, 02:03:51 AM
Aggravated Harm is marked as such on the Harm track, is not associated with any Pools and does not settle down after an extended conflict like Harm normally does. A character has to make some sort of healing check to transform aggravated Harm into normal injuries before it can be feasibly healed by natural healing.
Wow, Eero, that is exactly what I am after. Awesome! I think for my Werewolf game I will require PCs who take Aggravated Harm from silver to make a Primal Urge (V) check to convert it to normal Harm. This could only be done outside of an extended conflict and probably costs Vigour.
Just out of curiousity, what circumstances inflict Aggravated Harm in World of Near?
Quote from: Eero Tuovinen on August 25, 2009, 02:03:51 AM
I'd probably allow regeneration checks during extended conflicts as long as the cost was similar to the cost of natural healing - more than one Pool point, definitely.
Makes sense. I like this rule.
Quote from: Eero Tuovinen on August 25, 2009, 02:03:51 AM
For Essence, I'm not vincing; I could use a similar mechanic myself. However, I do recognize that the balance problems you're having with the system are partially due to how you've included a lot of mechanical stuff that has been introduced wholesale and provided for the player characters free of Advance cost. This way of introducing crunch obviates the normal, organic balance SS mechanics have, so it's no wonder if you encounter all sorts of small balance issues as things settle down.
Wow, no wincing? I'm surprised :)
Yeah, I attempted to replicate some of the mechanics from the original system (the ones I liked) into SS and this is the result. In hindsight, I should been more selective and approached it from the angle of how SS works rather than trying to weld unwieldy crunch onto SS. The converted PCs got a heap of Secrets and Keys as I tried to model these mechanics. I would love to be able to redo the conversion and strip away most of them, but the game is well underway.
Quote from: Eero Tuovinen on August 25, 2009, 02:03:51 AM
The way you describe Essence makes it sound like it'd work in a simpler and more elegant manner as a normal Effect: whenever the character participates in essence-gathering just have him check some suitable Ability to see how much Essence he holds and can expend later on.
Yes, this is a much more elegant treatment of Essence than what I did. I like the idea of the PCs getting Essence in this manner, since they would only be getting a randomised amount rather than a fixed amount, which is still limited. Nice!
The way I have determined the Essence Pool is also convoluted. In the setting fiction, werewolves can acquire status with the spirit world which is called Renown. It comes in five types: Cunning, Glory, Honour, Purity and Wisdom. I made each type of Renown a trait ranked one to five. Having Renown provides intangible status benefits, such as spirits being slighty less hostile to the PC and bonus die for Instinct checks against other werewolves who have a lower total Renown.
Each type also comes with a Key, as the spirits expect werewolves in according to their Renown. When a PC spends XP to Renown, they gain a Gift (a werewolf supernatural power) for free. More importantly, the total amount of Renown determines the total Essence Pool for the werewolf. This is the only way to increase the Essence Pool, which keeps it limited.
Pretty convoluted, huh? I am thinking a more elegant way to handle Renown would be to make each Renown type an Ability. Maybe Cunning (I), Glory (V), Honour (I), Purity (V), and Wisdom (R), and then rate them from Mediocre (0) to Grandmaster (4). But maybe even this is too much?
Another problem is that more experienced werewolf NPCs tend to have a lot more Renown than the PCs, which means more of an Essence Pool. I think this is generally okay, since this is the benefits of being a powerful werewolf, but it does have some balance issues.
As for shapeshifting:
Quote from: Eero Tuovinen
Human form has no bonuses or penalties.Near-man gets a bonus die to all wolfy things.Wolf-man gets a bonus die to all physical activities and two bonus dice to combat; however, he pays 1 Vigor for all Ability checks he makes.Dire wolf gets the wolf effect and a bonus die to violent and brutal actions.Wolf form gets to swap Ability ratings between wolfy and human-y Abilities equal to the character's transformation check, moving good ratings into things a wolf could use and vice versa.It's similar to your original vision, but reduces the number of dice involved to manageable levels.
I like these suggestions better. I especially like the idea of a werewolf having to pay Vigour to make ability checks in Gauru (wolf-man) form, as a werewolf is supposed to have limited time in this form and all the werewolf can usually do is howl, rampage and destroy things. Even using a weapon more complicated than a club is out of the question.
By "wolfy things" I assume you mean anything a wolf could do - track by scent, heightened hearing, howling, acting in a pack, dominating others (or being dominated), running, leaping, intimidating (through snarling/growling), etc?
Quote from: Klaus_Welten on August 25, 2009, 04:25:32 AM
This thread is going right into my favorites. Eero, your are my heero. :-P
Indeed. Eero is awesome :)
Eero Tuovinen:
Quote from: Courage75 on August 25, 2009, 03:10:48 PM
Wow, Eero, that is exactly what I am after. Awesome! I think for my Werewolf game I will require PCs who take Aggravated Harm from silver to make a Primal Urge (V) check to convert it to normal Harm. This could only be done outside of an extended conflict and probably costs Vigour.
Just out of curiousity, what circumstances inflict Aggravated Harm in World of Near?
Surprisingly many things, when all is said and done. At least Three-Corner magic can do it; Vulfen bites that tear flesh and bone; professional goblin-slayers - coistrels - who learn to injure goblin anatomy; wooden weapons against moon-metal and moon-hearted men; Skironite combat magics against enemies rooted in the earth.
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The way I have determined the Essence Pool is also convoluted. In the setting fiction, werewolves can acquire status with the spirit world which is called Renown. It comes in five types: Cunning, Glory, Honour, Purity and Wisdom. I made each type of Renown a trait ranked one to five. Having Renown provides intangible status benefits, such as spirits being slighty less hostile to the PC and bonus die for Instinct checks against other werewolves who have a lower total Renown.
Renown sure sounds like a bunch of Keys to me. That should work well if you let the players buy them as they would - giving them all to each of them for free is too much, doesn't leave the players with enough choice as to what their individual characters are about.
I could imagine doing the social aspect of renown by making each of them a Secret that provides whatever benefits they might have. Something like this:
Secret of Purity
The character is famed for his purity. A successful Status (I) check allows the player to establish that a given NPC is already familiar with his reputation when they first meet. The character can have one such check result as a free Effect at once, providing him with bonus dice to his dealings with spirits and others who care of his renown.
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Pretty convoluted, huh? I am thinking a more elegant way to handle Renown would be to make each Renown type an Ability. Maybe Cunning (I), Glory (V), Honour (I), Purity (V), and Wisdom (R), and then rate them from Mediocre (0) to Grandmaster (4). But maybe even this is too much?
That's not impossible, but Abilities are a huge part of character identity - I wouldn't have such a large number of them unless you're spending lots of play time on the matter. Also, you have to be comfortable with what these personal virtue Abilities could or could not be used for in practical play if they're Abilities; I do have one culture in the new book that explicitly goes for virtue Abilities, but I do that in full cognisance of how different an approach that is compared to the default of Abilities representing real skills. Not something to do unthinkingly.
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By "wolfy things" I assume you mean anything a wolf could do - track by scent, heightened hearing, howling, acting in a pack, dominating others (or being dominated), running, leaping, intimidating (through snarling/growling), etc?
Yeah, those sound like wolfy things to me.
Courage75:
Quote from: Eero Tuovinen on August 26, 2009, 01:36:52 AM
Surprisingly many things, when all is said and done. At least Three-Corner magic can do it; Vulfen bites that tear flesh and bone; professional goblin-slayers - coistrels - who learn to injure goblin anatomy; wooden weapons against moon-metal and moon-hearted men; Skironite combat magics against enemies rooted in the earth.
So the ability to deal Aggravated Harm is always determined by the situation, not the result of a check? For example, getting a result of 7 deals Aggravated Harm instead of requiring the PC to Transcend?
Quote from: Eero Tuovinen on August 26, 2009, 01:36:52 AM
Renown sure sounds like a bunch of Keys to me. That should work well if you let the players buy them as they would - giving them all to each of them for free is too much, doesn't leave the players with enough choice as to what their individual characters are about.
The PCs had about 2 to 3 Keys of Renown each. But generally, yeah, they are overloaded with other Keys as well. There is one in particular I would like your opinion on, but I might start a new thread for it since it is slightly complicated.
Quote from: Eero Tuovinen on August 26, 2009, 01:36:52 AM
Secret of Purity
The character is famed for his purity. A successful Status (I) check allows the player to establish that a given NPC is already familiar with his reputation when they first meet. The character can have one such check result as a free Effect at once, providing him with bonus dice to his dealings with spirits and others who care of his renown.
That's a useful Secret. I might use that one.
Quote from: Eero Tuovinen on August 26, 2009, 01:36:52 AM
That's not impossible, but Abilities are a huge part of character identity - I wouldn't have such a large number of them unless you're spending lots of play time on the matter. Also, you have to be comfortable with what these personal virtue Abilities could or could not be used for in practical play if they're Abilities; I do have one culture in the new book that explicitly goes for virtue Abilities, but I do that in full cognisance of how different an approach that is compared to the default of Abilities representing real skills. Not something to do unthinkingly.
Fair enough. The PCs have plenty of other Abilities already (probably too many) so I probably won't go down this path.
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By "wolfy things" I assume you mean anything a wolf could do - track by scent, heightened hearing, howling, acting in a pack, dominating others (or being dominated), running, leaping, intimidating (through snarling/growling), etc?
Yeah, those sound like wolfy things to me.
Cool :)
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