[Sorcerer] British Empire Steam Punk setting
Noclue:
Quote from: The Magus on August 24, 2009, 12:54:49 PM
You're absolutely right - although I think I wanted it to end a certain way, having become rather attached to my creation of the Hadean Order.
Yes. I think you were attached to a certain outcome but the game poses open ended questions for the players to answer. It is supposed to surprise you.
Quote from: The Magus on August 24, 2009, 12:54:49 PM
Yes, again you're right. I feel a little foolish having read my original sentence again. I think though I would like statements like "I would never betray my country." "Everyone has a price" Almost bland cliched sentences that any of us might trot out in real life which then get tested throughout the game.
Those sound like great Beliefs for Burning Wheel or Mouse Guard. Sorcerer does something else.
Quote from: The Magus on August 24, 2009, 12:54:49 PM
Bang List
Daniel gets the scoop but is offered money and a promotion to publish a totally different version of events, thereby alienating his source.
Daniel meets his father and has the opportunity to hand him over to the authorities for anti Empire dissent. Alternatively he could have protected him.
Daniel confronted by a Sorcerer - I know how you get your stories
Arthur Hill asks Jarvice to kill a "snooping peeler" (policeman). It turns out to be Daniel brother-in-law or Jarvice'sbrother, Uriah.
Those seem bangy. Did you throw all of them out in play? How did the players react to them?
These others feel more like stuff:
Quote
One of them is told "Should you pass this point you will discover the secret of the Hadean Order." - It was to be linked to the Royal Family. A son of Victoria as a Sorcerer.
The Royal Family have Catholic connections
A meeting with the man who went insane who mentins the Hadean Order
The British Revolutionary Workers' Party will gladly sacrifice workers if it feels it will gain in status or power.
Quentin finds a reference ot a mysterious 'A' in documents left in the will to him.
Quentin finds an 'amplifying chamber' in his house
A confrontation with Lady Amanda Bellowforth at an important social function.
Sutton, a demon member of the Hadean Order disappears.
Quote from: The Magus on August 24, 2009, 12:54:49 PM
If those things were on his character sheet then you would hopefully get a GM constructing that. But then what if the player wasn't satisfied with that? That's my fear as a GM, I construct something I think is OK and it falls flat.
I wouldn’t worry too much about that. Some will. If a bang falls flat then it just wasn’t a bang and you throw out the next one.
Ron Edwards:
Hi folks,
I have some advice if you're interested. Most of it is based on Mackie's comments.
1. Move away from your current "group jam" process to generate new scenes, and back toward a more traditional GM-based scene framing approach. The way to keep this from becoming GM authorship is for the players to be quite proactive in announcing what their characters will do next. At its best, this will evolve into a more character-centric, action-centric mode of generating scenes, with only a few being wholly GM-originated. Therefore it's not an autocracy, and hence not the same as what you (Mackie) are thinking of as the older/common method.
(Mackie, as an aside, the group-scene method you describe is itself not a "Narrativist thing." It's a technique that could be employed toward the ends of any Creative Agenda. In this particular case, the Narrativist context of Sorcerer's design is actually undercut (damaged) by this technique.)
Quote
Another instance of this quite open approach to player directorship was where on one or two occasions another player put their character into a scene previously only containing one of the other characters + NPCs. It was worked ok and was quite casual: ‘I guess this might be a dramatic moment for my guy to walk in and say 'x’.
This, on the other hand, is a much more delimited technique that is well-suited to Sorcerer, and I recommend it.
2. You guys are being way too abstract. I recommend slowing down, coming up with details, enjoying the visual or other sensory experience, and basically providing a lot more immediate physical context for the events. I understand why you're doing it the way you're doing it, because it's happened with me and others quite a lot. Once the actual dynamic power of the decisions/actions of Sorcerer characters gets under way, there's a strong temptation to "rock hard" with getting to those points and making them flip the emergent plot further along. And that's fine, as a phase of learning the game.
But now, I recommend basking in the knowledge that the game really does make wide-open story creation work, especially in terms of illuminating a character in terms of raw plot outcomes ... and now that you know it does work, you can dial down the "get there get there" factor and enjoy the process in greater imaginative detail. Furthermore, you'll find that material introduced as Color has a way of becoming System-relevant, more often than not.
3. I think you should play the game further to see how the characters besides Quentin play out. You're right that they haven't really worked through their various Kickers yet, nor experienced a full arc (which is sort of the same thing). Piers, I suggest giving some thought to playing relatively low-pressure but possibly illuminating scenes for Quentin during the next session, to extend and examine the conclusion of his Kicker. After that, Max may or may not want to start a new Kicker for Quentin - it's allowed, incidentally, for people to resolve Kickers at different times and thus experience the reward cycle non-synchronously.
Best, Ron
The Magus:
Quote from: Ron Edwards on August 31, 2009, 10:18:57 AM
Hi folks,
I have some advice if you're interested. Most of it is based on Mackie's comments.
1. Move away from your current "group jam" process to generate new scenes, and back toward a more traditional GM-based scene framing approach. The way to keep this from becoming GM authorship is for the players to be quite proactive in announcing what their characters will do next. At its best, this will evolve into a more character-centric, action-centric mode of generating scenes, with only a few being wholly GM-originated.
Quote from: Neon White on August 25, 2009, 10:14:38 AM
Another instance of this quite open approach to player directorship was where on one or two occasions another player put their character into a scene previously only containing one of the other characters + NPCs. It was worked ok and was quite casual: ‘I guess this might be a dramatic moment for my guy to walk in and say 'x’.
This, on the other hand, is a much more delimited technique that is well-suited to Sorcerer, and I recommend it.
Noted - thanks for the tip
Quote from: Ron Edwards on August 31, 2009, 10:18:57 AM
2. You guys are being way too abstract. I recommend slowing down, coming up with details, enjoying the visual or other sensory experience, and basically providing a lot more immediate physical context for the events. I understand why you're doing it the way you're doing it, because it's happened with me and others quite a lot. Once the actual dynamic power of the decisions/actions of Sorcerer characters gets under way, there's a strong temptation to "rock hard" with getting to those points and making them flip the emergent plot further along. And that's fine, as a phase of learning the game.
But now, I recommend basking in the knowledge that the game really does make wide-open story creation work, especially in terms of illuminating a character in terms of raw plot outcomes ... and now that you know it does work, you can dial down the "get there get there" factor and enjoy the process in greater imaginative detail. Furthermore, you'll find that material introduced as Color has a way of becoming System-relevant, more often than not.
Again noted - but I'd be interested to know what you think of my comments further down about this
Quote from: Ron Edwards on August 31, 2009, 10:18:57 AM
3. I think you should play the game further to see how the characters besides Quentin play out. You're right that they haven't really worked through their various Kickers yet, nor experienced a full arc (which is sort of the same thing). Piers, I suggest giving some thought to playing relatively low-pressure but possibly illuminating scenes for Quentin during the next session, to extend and examine the conclusion of his Kicker. After that, Max may or may not want to start a new Kicker for Quentin - it's allowed, incidentally, for people to resolve Kickers at different times and thus experience the reward cycle non-synchronously.
I have given this some thought. Possibly a confrontation with the sister who lost out because of the will that favoured Quentin. The tables are now reversed. Later on the will she is the beneficiary in is shown to be a fake. I like the idea of Quentin being in prison - some form of hard labour and reflecting on his relationship with his friend who died 20 or so years ago. Doing some flashbacks to explore the origins of Quentin's cowardice and how he thought demons could solve this problem.
I was also wondering about Daniel and Jarvice. Daniel has ruined his career - in my mind he is effectively blacklisted. Possibly he is deported to Catholic Europe when his parent Catholicism becomes known about. I'm also keen on the idea of Jarvice being utterly corrupted, selling out everyone of his revolutionary values as he stuck up for the Hadean Order. I'd like to explore his relationship with his (still missing) daughter to see how unlikeable he really is.
We've played a different setting with Adam as GM - I think he was better than I - I'm not really a good bass player, more like Hendrix or Keith Moon (but living).
The other point I wish to make is something that Ron described in point 2 which is the interaction between Color and System. I don't feel that it is stated explicitly enough in the rules (for me at least) and what drives it mechanically is not very clear to me. It seems reliant on the players to riff and the GM to hold the riffing together (bass analogy). My only other experience with an Indie RPG was Cold City. I liked that because all our characters had personal and national agendas that conflicted and gave them a depth. I'm not sure for me as a player or GM whether I need something like that there. I want to get hold of a copy of Play Sorcerer when it's out as I get the impression that Christopher Kubasik is attempting to iron out some of these difficulties I've encountered.
I completely agree with Ron's assertion that system does matter. I am unclear about how far a system should go to regulate player interaction and creativity and how explicit it should be in stating that this is what it does. The more I play Sorcerer the more I appreciate its aesthetics. It is utterly stripped down and the resolution mechanics are sharp. In a sense I feel I've been given a skeleton to dress but I don't understand anatomy that well and I'm not sure whether my fashion sense is any good.
I posted about this before and never fully developed my thoughts. I think I should out myself a little more by way of explanations. I have worked as a group psychotherapist and am interested in the processes by which groups achieve tasks set. Additionally I am now finishing my training in Family and Systems Therapy which allows another way of looking at group process. I think it is an exceptional group that can manage the anxiety of not having a clear process to work to. One of the things about Gamism is that it gives you a clear set of goals (Win/Lose/Level up). The process of Story Now is a little more ephemeral to me. Sure, I get that Color, Character, Setting and Situation are critical to this process but it's the interaction with System that seems so key to me. I feel that my Sorcerer GMing and play occasionally misfires with regard to the interaction and for me the System in Sorcerer does not quite give an indication on how to get it firing on a good enough level.
Additionally I think there is an interaction between System and Social Contract that is not clearly defined. It is for me to do with how groups manage tasks and how groups are led. Another lens I'd like to look at this with is via Co-ordinated Management of Meaning. However, as it's a bit late and I'm rambling now I think I'll collect my thoughts some more and post again later.
Thanks
Piers
Noclue:
Magus, have you had a look at Jesse Burneko's series of posts about Sorcerer over at Story-Games.com called Practice: Sorcerer?
If not, I highly recommend them.
Noclue:
Sorry for the double. I had thoughts.
Quote from: The Magus on September 01, 2009, 04:19:03 PM
I was also wondering about Daniel and Jarvice. Daniel has ruined his career - in my mind he is effectively blacklisted. Possibly he is deported to Catholic Europe when his parent Catholicism becomes known about.
A cool setup. But what is the situation that compel Daniel to act? He's in Europe. He's blacklisted. These are things that "have happened." What's happening?
Quote from: The Magus on September 01, 2009, 04:19:03 PM
I'm also keen on the idea of Jarvice being utterly corrupted, selling out everyone of his revolutionary values as he stuck up for the Hadean Order. I'd like to explore his relationship with his (still missing) daughter to see how unlikeable he really is.
This raises similar questions. Also, has the character been utterly corrupted and unlikeable in play already? If not, I would probably present a tense situation where selling out is a compelling course of action, but leave the decision of how to respond to the player. Any choice the player makes should lead to interesting story fodder, but you won't know where its going until the choices are made.
Quote from: The Magus on September 01, 2009, 04:19:03 PM
The other point I wish to make is something that Ron described in point 2 which is the interaction between Color and System. I don't feel that it is stated explicitly enough in the rules (for me at least) and what drives it mechanically is not very clear to me.
....
In a sense I feel I've been given a skeleton to dress but I don't understand anatomy that well and I'm not sure whether my fashion sense is any good.
There's tons of discussions out there about whether the text is explicit enough in conveying its design goals. From reading lots of CK and Jesse posts, my working answer is "what you want is in there, but it might only be in there once." That's why CK is writing his Play Sorcerer, which should be very shiny when it comes out.
There is some stuff about GMing and social contract that is pertinent in Chapter 4 of the text. Along those lines, what have the demons been up to so far in the game?
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