[Sorcerer] A few mechanical questioms
Mackie:
After playing Sorcerer a few times now, I just had a few questions on rules that are niggling in my brain like an itch I cant quite scratch. I hat rules-lawyer type of playing, but on the other hand a coherent set of rules that one can internalise and not debate is condusive to the immersion of narrative RPGing.
1. Banishing and humanity gain.
OK. Bit confused about this one. As I understand it, you check Humanity vs Demons Power for a gain (providing your humanity is lower than demons power). this seems counter intuitive to me. The stronger (and thus more reality-offensive) the demon, the LESS chance you have of a humanity gain?. And the more human you are the greater the chance?. In effect, the easier it is to perform the task, the more chance of a reward (maybe this is D&D skeleton of risk vs reward... ).
It seems more coherent to me to make a Demons Power vs Humanity check in order to gain a humanity. Again, im not really interesting in rules lawyering, but it just seems a) more coherent and b) better balance.
2. Temporary penalties / Initiative / Combat.
Ok, say the Superhero Captain Awesome (A) smashes Doctor Bad (B) with his fists and does, hypothetically, 3 Temporary damage (lets ignore Lasting for the moment). Next round happens. Both the costumed goons have, say a stamina of 6. In this case, I presume that (A) rolls 6 dice and (B) rolls 3. Now, lets say (A) does something other than attack (B), like lecture a goon on truth justice etc. Dr B then comes up and attacks (A). What dice does he roll? The three on the table? or has he allready had his temp penalty so now gets to add 3 more to the attack (or subtract 3 from Captain Awesome's stamina defence). In essence, does temp damage JUST apply to the initiative roll?
In a similar vein, lets say the "initiative" rolls of 6 and 3 are made. But captain A decides to skip his lecture and KER-POW doctor B again. His dice stand as the attacking dice. Doctor B says holy-baloney, im going to abort to defend. In this case, what does he roll. 6 dice?, or 3?
3. Cover and combat rolls.
OK. I think I have this in my head, but im going to check. Lets say we have Charlie Chuckle (C) attack Desmond Dull (D). Charlie happens to have "Wrestler" as his cover, and states he is going to put Desmond in a head lock. Cover seems to apply. So, the actions are stated.
The way I conceive of this is PRIOR to the "initiative" rolls, Charlie would make a Cover roll vs Desmonds Stamina. Any excess victories would then be carried over to the "initiative" roll proper - and that roll only.
Of course, this wouldnt apply if Charlie is fighting with a chainsaw, or unarmed but non-wrestly ("I spin kick him to the head"). He could perhaps make the cover roll again is he was aborting to defend against desmond, if desmond was making a grapple type attack? or not? e.g. Say Desmond one the "initiative" roll and stated he was going to arm-lock Charlie. Charlie aborts: would he roll his stamina again, or would he get a cover vs Desmonds attack, carry bonuses, and then make a stamina vs attack roll (providing he narrates it in a wrestle-mania style!).
Anyone care to help me scratch the itch?
Ron Edwards:
Hello,
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1. Banishing and humanity gain.
...As I understand it, you check Humanity vs Demons Power for a gain (providing your humanity is lower than demons power). this seems counter intuitive to me. The stronger (and thus more reality-offensive) the demon, the LESS chance you have of a humanity gain?. And the more human you are the greater the chance?. In effect, the easier it is to perform the task, the more chance of a reward (maybe this is D&D skeleton of risk vs reward... ).
It seems more coherent to me to make a Demons Power vs Humanity check in order to gain a humanity. Again, im not really interesting in rules lawyering, but it just seems a) more coherent and b) better balance.
People ask about this a lot. However, I'm not sure exactly what you're asking. I think the roll terminology may be throwing you, specifically "check." Here's my guide to how I'm using the words:
"Humanity check" - a chance to lose a point
"Humanity gain roll" - a chance to gain a point
When you propose "Demon's Power vs. Humanity check in order to gain a Humanity," as a contrast or suggested replacement for "check Humanity vs. Demon's Power for a gain," I can't tell what you're talking about. Both of those look like the same thing to me, because it doesn't matter which score you list before the "vs." and which one you list after, and neither one matches the terms I use ... and worse, if I do try to translate them to the terms I use, all I see are the already-existing rules in the first place, or part of them.
Why don't I take this from the top, with every possible combination.
A sorcerer Banishes a demon that (i) he did not summon and (ii) has a Power higher than his Humanity. He may now attempt a Humanity gain roll, with his Humanity vs. the demon's Power (reverse it and say the demon's Power vs. his Humanity if you want, it's the same thing).
A sorcerer Banishes a demon that (i) he did summon and (ii) has a Power higher than his Humanity: no Humanity roll of any kind.
A sorcerer Banishes a demon that (i) he did not summon and (ii) has a Power lower than his Humanity: no Humanity roll of any kind.
A sorcerer Banishes a demon that (i) he did summon and (ii) has a Power lower than his Humanity: no Humanity roll of any kind.
That's the rule. Is that how you understood it? Again, I cannot tell at all what you are asking (or proposing as an alternative) so it's hard to know what to tell you.
Unfortunately, none of your second set of questions make any sense as written. I think you may have been butchering the system, but perhaps I'm wrong and these are simply detail-questions, with the confusion arising only from how you wrote the questions. You'll have to tell me how well my answers help you.
In your first example,
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Ok, say the Superhero Captain Awesome (A) smashes Doctor Bad (B) with his fists and does, hypothetically, 3 Temporary damage (lets ignore Lasting for the moment). Next round happens. Both the costumed goons have, say a stamina of 6. In this case, I presume that (A) rolls 6 dice and (B) rolls 3. Now, lets say (A) does something other than attack (B), like lecture a goon on truth justice etc. Dr B then comes up and attacks (A). What dice does he roll? The three on the table? or has he allready had his temp penalty so now gets to add 3 more to the attack (or subtract 3 from Captain Awesome's stamina defence). In essence, does temp damage JUST apply to the initiative roll?
Yes, the two begin the second round with six dice (A) and three dice (B). A has announced a lecture to a goon. B is attacking A. Your question is very puzzling because no dice are currently on the table. By definition, at the end of a round, the initially-rolled dice are all used up. So to begin this new round, A rolls six dice, and B rolls three, and that's the end of that. What "three on the table" are you referring to? There aren't any.
Also, your question about damage relies on the idea that B's three-dice roll is somehow not the same as his attack on A. If so, that's not correct. It is exactly and only his attack on A.
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In a similar vein, lets say the "initiative" rolls of 6 and 3 are made. But captain A decides to skip his lecture and KER-POW doctor B again. His dice stand as the attacking dice. Doctor B says holy-baloney, im going to abort to defend. In this case, what does he roll. 6 dice?, or 3?
This question isn't consistent with the rules either. All announcements of actions are made before the dice are rolled. A player cannot wait until the dice are rolled and then choose what his or her character does. Unfortunately, I can come up with two distinct ways to interpret what you're describing.
All right, here goes with the first. A is hitting B (again), with six dice. (Those aren't initiative dice, and I recommend you stop calling them that.) B is doing something with his three dice, but from your example, we don't know what. Let's say it's like your previous example and B is trying to hit A too. So all right: they roll six and three dice, respectively, and we go from there. For your example to make any sense, we have to assume that A has rolled a higher value (he might not). So now B is looking at that high value and must decide, at this point, whether to roll a single die to defend against the existing six-dice roll, or to abort the three-dice action and to roll full Stamina to defend.
That last bit might answer your question. A given temporary penalty only operates on its owner's next roll, which in this case meant that B's attack roll was reduced from six dice to three. Once that happens, the temporary penalty is gone forever. Do not think of a penalty as applying to the next round, only to the affected character's next roll.
The other way to interpret your question is that A announces his attack and B announces his "cover up and defend" before the dice are rolled. In this case, B's statement is not an abort. It's a full defense, and gives him a two-dice bonus, as well as being treated as an oppositional, direct-defend action to the attack (unlike any other combat roll in Sorcerer). Since it is indeed his next roll following being hit last round, his Stamina roll of six dice is reduced by three and increased by two, for a total of five dice to roll. But his only action is to defend.
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3. Cover and combat rolls.
OK. I think I have this in my head, but im going to check. Lets say we have Charlie Chuckle (C) attack Desmond Dull (D). Charlie happens to have "Wrestler" as his cover, and states he is going to put Desmond in a head lock. Cover seems to apply. So, the actions are stated.
The way I conceive of this is PRIOR to the "initiative" rolls, Charlie would make a Cover roll vs Desmonds Stamina. Any excess victories would then be carried over to the "initiative" roll proper - and that roll only.
Of course, this wouldnt apply if Charlie is fighting with a chainsaw, or unarmed but non-wrestly ("I spin kick him to the head").
Everything about the above text is completely correct. The following text asks a reasonable question that's easy to answer.
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He could perhaps make the cover roll again is he was aborting to defend against desmond, if desmond was making a grapple type attack? or not? e.g. Say Desmond one the "initiative" roll and stated he was going to arm-lock Charlie. Charlie aborts: would he roll his stamina again, or would he get a cover vs Desmonds attack, carry bonuses, and then make a stamina vs attack roll (providing he narrates it in a wrestle-mania style!).
Answer: the abort roll does not get a preliminary Cover roll to generate bonus dice. However, the Cover is not totally irrelevant; Charlier will indeed receive a bonus die for his full Stamina roll to defend, if the description of the abort-to-defense action is wrestle-y and not some stupid whore-for-dice monologue.
I hope any or all of that helps! Let me know.
Best, Ron
Mackie:
Thanks Ron, that indeed clears up a lot!!! Especially since I butchered the questions, not the system!!!
Q3. Great. Thought that was how it worked, good its straight in my head now!
Q2. Apologies for a sloppy question. I pretty much conceived of entirely the way you explain it, but thanks for wading through a thoroughly awful question. I understood it exactly as you describe it, but just wanted to make sure I hadn't understood it incorrectly. Apologies for using "Initiative" dice You will notice the paranthesis. COuldnt think of a good name for them. Ermmm.... "Action" dice? maybe?
Q1. This is still unclear to me. Im specifically considering a situation when Sorcerer (S) with Humanity (H) banishes a demon (D) with power (P) - and one he didnt summon himself. In otherwords, the situation when the sorcerer may gain a point of humanity.
I'm not sure how to express this properly. But Ill try.
I appreciate you always roll (H) against (P). But what I dont get is :
a) Does (S) gain a point of humanity if the (H) roll wins? [this seems very peculiar] OR
b) DOes (S) gain a pointy of humanity if the (P) roll wins? (this seems more coherent)
Does that make sense?
Thanks or wading through some bloody awful questions anyway!
Ron Edwards:
Hi Mackie,
I'm glad the dialogue is working. For your remaining question, let's use characters and numbers. The sorcerer, whom we will call Mackie, has Humanity 5. The demon, whom we will call Snoggle, has Power 8. Due to a variety of useful and lucky circumstances, Mackie has banished Snoggle. Also, Snoggle was not summoned by Mackie in the first place, but rather by Mackie's ex-wife Eleanor, who is not otherwise involved in this example.
Roll Humanity 5 (five dice) against Power 8 (eight dice). State it the opposite way if you like (Power 8 against Humanity 5), doesn't matter.
- If Mackie's dice (five, for his Humanity) yield a higher value than Snoggle's dice (eight dice, for its Power), then Mackie gains a point of Humanity, for a new value of 6.
- If they don't, he does not gain a point of Humanity and its score remains the same, at 5.
I cannot understand why you think Mackie should gain a point of Humanity if Snoggle's Power wins that roll. That makes absolutely no sense to me.
Best, Ron
Noclue:
Hi Ron. I think his issue is that the more powerful the demon, the less likely you are to gain humanity from successfully banishing it. I'm curious about this as well.
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