[Dogs] What are the demons for?
Simon C:
As mentioned in the other thread (which I found super useful, thanks everyone), we've just wrapped up our fifth Dogs town, and are moving on to our sixth.
We've been playing with the GM role revolving between players, in part because for most of us, it's our favourite part of play, and also to accommodate people dropping in and out if they can't make it (although in practice we've all made it every time).
Each of us has a slightly different take on the supernatural in the game. Steve plays at about a 1 or 2 (out of ten), Malcolm runs his towns at about a 3, and I run towns at a solid zero.
I guess what I'm wondering about is what obvious supernatural stuff adds to the game. In the towns I've played, supernatural stuff has tended to make things much easier to judge. When someone "vamps out" with supernatural things going on, the reactions from the dogs is typically "oh, so you're the bad guy then." In towns where there's less supernatural, it seems more ambiguous. You're never sure if the person you're judging is really at the root of the problem.
So what I'm asking I suppose is what does supernatural stuff add to the game? More broadly, what do the demons add to the game? What do you lose if you don't define what the demons want? I'd like to go a little more supernatural in the next town I make, but I'd like to do it right.
lumpley:
Help me understand!
Why would you like to go more supernatural?
How could you do it wrong?
-Vincent
David Artman:
I think I might be following your concerns. I'll try ot unpack a bit.
First, Demonic Influence doesn't have to be obvious--Possession in particular is the "vamp out" stuff.
* What does DI get you? d10s to use against the Dogs (i.e. about the only7 way to REALLY hammer more than one Dog into giving).
* What does Possession give you? A bunch of sweet powers that makes a Sorcerer even MORE difficult to defeat.
And here's a though: have you considered making the embodiment of Possession something... angelic-looking? If "vamping out" looked to the False Worshipers like the coming of Gabriel, then you get NPCs piling into the conflict, too. (This might not be "canon" for the RAW.)
Also, don't forget that "conventional" DITV play is VERY open, GM-to-players. If you enjoy "investigation," then fine--go for it, have a ball, and the vamping out must be minimal. But if you play vanilla DITV, the "perps" are crystal clear to the players; it's not so much "who's the bad guy" as "how do I deal with the bad guy that's my aunt/brother/5-year-old cousin?" Remember the DITV Mantra: "Oh, really? OK, how about NOW?" If you are using relationships and pushing at the Dogs (or even dividing them, when players have disagreements about "morality"), then a vamp-out won't much matter: they know it was the aunt/brother/etc all along, NOW the town knows... but NOW it's a hell of a lot tougher to deal with (buncha d10s, buncha powers) and I *still* ain't gonna put bullet holes in a misguided kid/my aunt/my brother!
That said... many DITV games are blood baths. Which is why I like to play pacifist Dogs: I don't HAVE the luxury of just filling all the corrupt with lead and letting the town try to rebuild with fewer work hands (keep that in mind, too, by the way: every strong person put in the ground is one less person to keep these small towns viable--this is STILL a frontier, mind you!).
Hope this helps... I might be way out in left field vis a vis your questions (I don't feel Vincent's confusion... so maybe I'M the huckleberry....)
jburneko:
I like playing Dogs in the Vineyard with the supernatural dial turned to eleven. I rarely build towns that don't got to Hate & Murder and my Sorcery is always over-the-top horribly impossible stuff.
This is common concern: Why doesn't the presence of overt demonic action null and void the moral questions underlying the game?
Answer: Trust town creation.
Everyone thinks town creation is awesome because it's this explicit process for creating scenarios. Pffft. Call of Cthulhu has an explicit process for creating adventures. Here's what REALLY makes Town Creation different. In Call of Cthulhu you usually START with the REALLY BAD GUY/THING. You work backwards from that so all you really have is the bad guy and the bad thing he's doing. In Dogs in the Vineyard you start with ordinary sympathetic folks and you work forward to the REALLY BAD GUY.
That means that shooting the bad guy doesn't solve the problem. In fact, it can often make the problem worse because now that the really big scary dude is gone everyone else kind of flips out because hey, they were buddies with the really bad guy, does that mean the dogs will kill them next?
Example:
Pride: Brother Callan, the 15 year old son of Brother Joseph and Sister Constance, thinks he's old enough to have his own family.
Injustice: Brother Callan is always off "courting" Sister Emily, the 13 year old daughter of Brother Ebediah instead of helping his father work the fields.
Sin: Brother Callan and Sister Emily sleep together.
Demonic Attacks: Sister Emily gets pregnant and Brother Ebediah is killed in a farming accident that Brother Callan could have prevented had he been there.
False Doctrine: The Steward, Brother Garret, believes that the youth is wasted on the young.
Corrupt Worship: Sister Emily is banished (still pregnant) to live in a shack out in the desert plains. Every Sunday Brother Garret has the childen of the town line up and he whips Brother Callan as a reminder of what happens to those who give in to youthful indiscretion.
False Priesthood: Sister Constance, Brother Ebediah, and Steward Garret agree that something must be done with youths who transgress. Also, Sister Constance agrees to become Brother Ebediah's second wife. They have bonded over shared family tragedy.
Sorcery: Steward Garret sends all youths who step out of line to a nearby silver mine. While working there they rapidly age and Sister Constance, Brother Ebediah and Steward Garret all grow younger.
Hate & Murder: Brother Nolan is one of the youths sent to the mines. His brother, Brother Cameron, age 16, goes looking for Brother Nolan and discovers what is going out at the mines. Steward Garret has Brother Cameron publically hanged as another "example."
I won't go into the What do the Demons Want and What do the people want from the Dogs stuff. I think most of that is pretty obvious from what's here. Two important things of note:
1) When I run this town I always start with the Dogs seeing the scaffold with Brother Cameron's body hanging there. I mention there's a sign posted that reads, "Spare The Rod, Spoil The Child."
2) I immediately follow this with someone in the Town mentioning that they hope the Dogs stay long enough to bless the upcoming marriage of Sister Constance and Brother Ebediah.
3) I never have Steward Garret affraid to go all demon crazy. I change it up a bit from run to run but I mean, in one game he had wings and talons and fangs!
So yeah, at some point Steward Garret dies. That's really not an issue. He's effectively a vampire. But what he's done and how ridiculously evil he is, is not the issue. He's just a bit of fantasy fun.
What's really stake is:
1) How culpable are Brother Ebediah and Sister Constance? Their families were legitimately destroyed and they were just following the leadership of their Steward like good faithful. Is their marriage a good thing?
2) What about Brother Callan, Sister Emily and their baby? Is that a family or just children playing parenthood?
3) Another interesting thing is what the Dogs choose to do about the children who have been aged. Since the supernatural dial is so high that's wide open. I've seen everything from, "Sorry, enjoy what little life you have left" to "We use Ceremony against the demons to reverse the process." That's not an insignificant choice.
Does that help?
Jesse
hix:
After our game I thought about this, Simon: the demons give us someone to blame.
Say the supernatural dial is turned way down low. That means the Faithful are sinning and screwing and generally being human. But we can blame it all on the demons and the hierarchy of sin. After the Dogs perform a few exorcisms and slap a few people around (and possibly do both of those things at the same time), we can say the demons are gone and the sin's been punished.
Say the supernatural dial is turned way up high. That means the Faithful are sinning and screwing and generally being human, but there are freaking demons and people with cats eyes. Man, of course we have to blame all the problems on the demons and the hierarchy of sin. They're right there in front of us. After the Dogs perform a few exorcisms and shoot a few people around (and possibly do both of those things at the same time), we can say the demons are gone and the sin's been punished.
In both cases, the Faithful are seen as the victims of the demons. The demons give us someone to blame; they give us an excuse not to face up to our own culpability, our own human responsibilities for causing the sin in the first place.
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