Looking at the idea called 'system' again
Callan S.:
From the thread on colour, which is a quote from Ron
Quote
If I can see the bigger reward system, grasp the Currency, and get bug-eyed to transform the Color into System through play
There's something about this that makes me go "Huh, is that how you've/everyones been refering to system all this time?"
I'll start off with a kind of obtuse example - if I'm on public transport and someone has decided punction is best replaced by the f word and an occasional c bomb, and I decide to say nothing and and do nothing and kind of put up with that, is that a system?
Also awhile back I played in a game of rifts, and the GM (a friend of mine) had been saying that aimed/called shots, which take up an attack, don't mean you have to wait. Eg, if it would use up two attacks, you don't sit through two turns doing nothing, you do it now and your total attacks for the melee round is reduced by two. However, when it came to reloading, latter in the same game, no, you had to use an attack and do nothing for a turn. I tried to present this apparent conflict, but he literally said something like 'Aww, come on, you can't just reload and shoot all at once'...despite the fact that apparently people were carefully aiming for some time, yet shooting instantly and somehow that aiming time happened after the shot (was taken off the number of attacks). At this point I thought of the golden rule, how it'd eventually get invoked no doubt, and ceased bothering to discuss it and just went with it (and chalked up yet another dumb and uninteresting point against the golden rule).
And you might say 'Ah, but the golden rule! You agreed!'. But...agreed to what? Any possible permutation of it's application? I'm not sure that's humanly possible. I've played games of the card game lunch money, and had "block, grapple, combo, hail mary!" all laid on me - all that stuff, though, I certainly agreed to. And by that I mean I can look back into my own past and remember seeing the possibility of it, and giving it the nod. While here I am not able to recall accepting that aimed shots take no time at all, as I didn't. It's much like the train example, except here it's more about checking whether I put up with it, and deciding I do based on giving friends leeway.
"Ah ha, THAT's system!" perhaps might be said. But the thing is, this still comes down to a crunch of me deciding if I put up with shit. Tolerating events (should one decide to) that come up, whether it's the train or some one at the table inventing stuff, is not system. The fact that I don't reach over and wrap my fingers around your throat, doesn't mean there's some sort of system between us.
Or so I would have thought would be widely taken as the case. But I'm not sure the word system has been used this way, since it started being used. It'd certainly explain the anyway smelly chamberlain thread if that's all called system.
What is system? Well I'd scrap considering anything that's outside of the rules, to be honest. Scrap the idea that its "not limited to 'the rules'". Why is that - well, not because of some fetish for rules but simply because you can see the rules. You can test if someone else is actually following what they agreed to follow. Otherwise you sound a bit like declaring god exists, when you say someones participating in a system - once it's outside of the things which can be used to check if you are followng a system (rules), then like assertions of a gods existance, just as much one can't readily disprove a gods existance, nor can you disprove someone is acting within a system. But by the same token it can't be proved, either. It's in limbo. Neither proved nor disproved, with no way of gaining evidence either way. There is no measure to check it by, and if you do invent a measure, bang, you just invented some rules! System is either inside rules only or we are all literally blind to whether someone is acting within a system or not, with no measure to test that assertion. If you just wanna have faith they are in some sort of system, I dunno. Anything I'd say about that would be clipped, so I'll wait to see if it actually comes up.
lumpley:
Well, the idea is to look at a group really at play and figure out what their system is, not to look at a person's decisions and classify them as in-system vs out-of-system. Start with play and observe system, don't start with system and classify play.
If you look at dysfunctional play, like the play you're describing, you'll find dysfunctional systems, like "I put up with shit." That's not surprising.
-Vincent
FredGarber:
Callan,
I disagree that System should be limited to the rules. You can measure all the other things as well, at the very least by the binary marker of "Did he show up to game or did he find some other way to spend his time?" The relationship between players and GM is part of the System, most definitely. There are whole books written on managing these relationships, like this one: http://www.amazon.com/Robins-Laws-Good-Game-Mastering/dp/1556346298
Relationships between people are messy and complicated, but they are quantifiable and can be measured and adjusted.
There's a link in the spawning "How does Color get into System" thread here: http://www.lumpley.com/anycomment.php?entry=234 that I think helps here.
Vincent divides System into four parts: Ad-Hoc Decisions, Principled Decisions, the Rules You Use, and the Rules you Ignore.
Most of that post is a discussion of what Vincent means when he says "The Rules," so it doesn't matter here. But his model is useful:
In your example, You saw the Aiming Time decision as Ad-hoc (not principled), but a Good, because it increased the Fun.
When the Reloading Time decision came up, you tried to get it accepted as a Good, because it would increase the Fun, not because it made sense (was a Principled decision). The GM tried to make a case that Reloading Time had to follow a 'Realism' Principle, and you pointed out that there wasn't a Principle behind Aiming Time, so why did there have to be a Principle behind Reloading Time?
Your discussion about whether or not you were willing to put up with those house rules was a discussion of whether or not you wanted to agree with the group's System.
IMHO, you agreed to decisions made in play when you don't say "That's bull, I don't want to play with that," You agreed by Omission, rather than by Commission, so to speak.
People talk about Capes on this forum as either being playable in two different ways: Ultra Gamist or Ultra Narrative, with no middle ground.
In that case, the rules don't change, but a group making Decisions how those rules are applied is Exploration of System. (as well as any of the other Explorations). As long as all the players are Exploring System in the same way (operating on the same Principles), the game goes well. There are a number of APs where groups hate Capes because the group was not united in Principle (and Exploring System in different directions).
-Fred
Callan S.:
Guys, your starting off with the assumption system did exist, then looking for evidence only in that direction. Particularly when/if you say 'what the system is' rather than 'whether there was a system at all, and if there was one, what was it?'. I mean, speaking with absolutely no doubt there was a system, it's just a question of what it was? Absolute certainty? No capacity for failure at all in terms of thinking that? Utterly perfect knowledge on that matter?
Put it this way - do you think it's even possible for there to be an abscence of system?
If not, oh well, I'm not taking that on in this thread, that's for sure.
This thread is for people who go 'Well, I guess it's possible' and then we ask 'How would you measure whether it was the case, assuming it can be measured?'
JoyWriter:
Callan, there's a bit of philosophical stuff going on in this thread, to do with circular logic, empiricism, falsifiability and all that business, but before I get into that, you have quoted a sentence fragment there, so I can't really see what your aha moment was:
"if x and y exist and b becomes c, then ....."
I don't really see how that can give you any insight into c, aside from the fact that b can possibly become it. Where's the insight? Does it require something else in the rest of the post you quoted from?
Secondly, and I think this is really important, the big model is about functional play. People have seen great things and want to describe it, they had a good game yesterday and want to work out what was present in that game. It may be you've never had a good game in your life, or it might be that you've only had good games in certain specific situations: When you worked together happily and had a really enjoyable game, that's where the measurement is being taken and the theory is about finding a pattern of experience that connects those good times. This kind of theory is about what it looks like when we "win" at making a form of arrangement that everyone is happy with, that we want to continue. Once you know the target, then you can compare your current situation to it and try to find how to get there.
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