Point/Success of Publishing Without Community?
MatrixGamer:
I think the issue comes down to burnout.
You've worked hard. You've written a game. You're living out in BFE. There are no gamers around or those that are are only playing D+D and on line your work is not getting recognized.
I think that sums it up.
I've hit that burn out wall in gaming three or four times in the last twenty years. Others have had significantly more success than I've had and I feel envy. It sucks and I've taken whole years off of writing due to it. Sometimes that's what you've got to do. Working hard banging you head against the wall will not make a door.
All that said, everytime I've burned out I come back. It is possible to create a small group to talk games with and the energy from that group can help project me into outreach efforts to the wider world. I don't control the outcomes but I can try different approaches when I hit the wall. Each failure can lead to growth. When I die I will not look on this effort as wasted because it was better than drinking and shooting (I'm with you on that!)
For now you need to get more of your social needs met. If game making helps that then cool. If it doesn't - well hose it for a while.
When you come back work on projects that jazz you, they are the only ones worth bleeding for. That is the only reason I keep on working on Matrix Games. I insanely believe in them. Success is slow and if it ever really happens will be fifteen years after my ego wanted and expected it. So it's not about ego - it's about discipline and lifestyle.
Vent your spleen and accept my sympathy the life of most game makers is not easy. There is no magic reciepe for success.
Chris Engle
greyorm:
Quote from: Christoph Boeckle on November 06, 2009, 02:07:57 AM
I'm an ass, I forgot to say how much I appreciate you talking about this in the first place and how you give detailed replies. This is a lot of food for thought for me, and I want to make sure that it's clear that I admire your honest and open discussion about a dissatisfying result (which I count as just as useful as accounts of very successful publishing.) I'm sorry I didn't say that upfront.
There is no need to apologize at all, Chris, nor consider yourself an ass, and I apologize if it seemed in any way that I was snapping at you. And thanks for the kind words, I'm very glad this is proving helpful to someone else as well, rather than it being just me waxing long and whiny.
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Let me state that I stand corrected where I had to be corrected. Nevertheless the distinction between Elfs and Orx wasn't that clear to me (and I might argue that from what I read in your AP reports, there was a good deal of slapstick humour, but hey, as you said, it's not the point)
Yet something I've been thinking about now, so thank you for bringing it up!
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It's true that what I say does not even start to describe why Conspiracy of Shadows and Fastlane have had a hard time, but then again, I don't know their numbers and design history, whereas for Orx you have been quite detailed. As far as I know, Conspiracy of Shadows is going on to a third edition, so is it really that bad?
Have to ask Keith, but from things he has said and the scarcity of AP reports, I had assumed the first two editions were not well received nor sold well. I may well be wrong about this.
Quote from: Dan Maruschak on November 06, 2009, 12:55:15 PM
Your description of the shortcomings of online play sound like they refer to text-chat-based play. Have you tried playing over Skype? I don't have any good in-face tabletop experiences to compare to, but I've had several enjoyable Skype based games.
I have not tried playing over Skype. That was just starting to come into vogue when I was leaving the on-line play scene. I may have to try it out at some point; do you know of any good places where folks arrange those sorts of on-line games?
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I think it's kind of disappointing that the only designs that ever have a shot of working out are the ones designed by people who are also well-connected enough to get the help they need to kick things to the next level. A potential solution would be forming AP or playtest groups with other designers for mutual benefit, but that requires finding other designers who are interested and a good match, which is probably even harder than finding players.
That has been one of my main frustrations as a designer as well, something I've mentioned a couple times over the years as a definite hurdle for the would-be designer. And from what I've seen, and there have been a few such attempts at creating just such a thing, it does indeed appear to be more difficult.
Quote from: MatrixGamer on November 12, 2009, 10:56:24 AM
Vent your spleen and accept my sympathy the life of most game makers is not easy. There is no magic reciepe for success.
Always good points to make. I don't think I'm looking for a magic recipe, as I'm well-aware there isn't one, I am trying to see if there are activities that actually do boost the chances in the crap-shoot of attaining success (I'm also well-aware there are plenty of illusory boosters that "everyone knows" which on examination turn out to be so much wishful thinking or false pattern-finding). While I recognize success is a matter of dodging bullets on the battlefield until you reach the other side, and that you can make it right off or thirty years down the line because gun-fu is a fantasy, I'm interested now in seeing if there are any ways to speed up that process or affect the actual odds.
Dan Maruschak:
Quote from: greyorm on November 28, 2009, 02:19:09 PM
Quote from: Dan Maruschak on November 06, 2009, 12:55:15 PM
Your description of the shortcomings of online play sound like they refer to text-chat-based play. Have you tried playing over Skype? I don't have any good in-face tabletop experiences to compare to, but I've had several enjoyable Skype based games.
I have not tried playing over Skype. That was just starting to come into vogue when I was leaving the on-line play scene. I may have to try it out at some point; do you know of any good places where folks arrange those sorts of on-line games?
I don't know if there are any good places. Both of the groups I'm a part of came from contacts made on the discussion forums for The Gutter Skypes, an Actual Play podcast based on Skype gaming. I see posts in the RPG.net Gaming Gathering forums about setting up Skype groups, and that may work, too.
greyorm:
Quote from: Dan Maruschak on November 28, 2009, 02:46:06 PM
I don't know if there are any good places. Both of the groups I'm a part of came from contacts made on the discussion forums for The Gutter Skypes, an Actual Play podcast based on Skype gaming. I see posts in the RPG.net Gaming Gathering forums about setting up Skype groups, and that may work, too.
Thanks for the pointers, Dan. I'll look into those.
Sebastian K. Hickey:
Hi guys,
I just posted this comment in another thread, and I realise it would be more useful if it were answered here.
Once I've got a game, assuming I can't take on the US conventions (nod to Eero), what should I do now?
That's the question. Here's the backup:
Quote from: Luke Crane
I announce on my forums and others that we have a new book coming out. I encourage folks to speculate on what it is.
I announce the nature of the produce 30-45 days later. I put it on the front page of my website. I announce it on other forums.
15-30 days later, I put the product up for presale. Depending on the product, preorders get a PDF when they order and then wait 30-45 days for the actual book. I never put up a preorder until the book is at the printer.
I also make sure I do this around the same time every year, once a year. I release one product a year and my fans know it. They can rely on it.
I attend conventions, demonstrate the product and personally sell it to interested folks. At conventions, if there's a busy dealer's room, I get a table and hang banners and sell from there...Last year I went to Dreamation, Origins, Dexcon, Connecticon, Gen Con, PAX and Draconis. It was a light year for me. At the height of my effort, I was doing just under one a month.
Assuming I'm at the delivery point of my first game, and I'm happy to get it out to the printers, where should I start promoting the product? Luke mentions that he'd use his own forum, but I don't have enough fans for that. In fact, I don't have any fans yet, except for the people I have played with face to face. Which leads me on to the next question. If I were living in a remote, green little island off the coast of Europe, where every convention offers the same faces, how should I expand my audience? In other words, I'm from Ireland and I can get to every con here, but there won't be any new imaginations to capture unless I head to Europe (a costly and scary business).
What would you suggest? Is there a way to bring my game to a U.S. convention without actually flying around the world? Or should I just move to the States and cash in on the indie RPG gold rush (read irony)? Everyone advises that the best way to create an audience is to go out there and play your game at the conventions (except the people in this thread), but what if the doing of that is prohibitively expensive?
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