Humanity and Society
Frank Tarcikowski:
Check me on this. I have this understanding of Humanity as something that, within the setting, is generally thought of as something good/right. So when someone does things that warrant Humanity checks, those things would be considered bad/wrong by society, and someone at Humanity zero would be an outcast at the very least. I don’t know if it says so anywhere in the books but this is just how all Sorcerer settings I’ve seen were laid out, and I was assuming this is a key feature.
Context: I just read a discussion on a German board where people are playing & Sword and in the setting, society is built on oppression, slavery and corruption. Humanity is “being civilized”, as in Western philosophy civilized (Categorical Imperative etc.) I don’t want to dismiss the idea, but I’m trying to wrap my head around how this could work. Now acts that would warrant a Humaniry check would often be considered normal/expected by people, whereas Humanity gains would seem weird/unexpected. Does this work? How does it affect the game, especially in the light of addressing premise?
- Frank
James_Nostack:
Hi Frank,
The only people who need to care about Humanity are the people playing Sorcerer. It's the core of the value system at work in the play of the game itself, but it doesn't have to be valued by any fictional characters or cultures.
Dictionary of Mu presents one example of this: "heroism" seems to be generally derided and not a major part of the brutal cultures of Marr'd, but that only makes heroism more important to the story.
Personally, I think this does a decent job of addressing premise, as the sorcerers are all about moral alienation from their society (and from us as well), basically through play creating and testing an ad-hoc individual ethic.
But that's just my view.
jburneko:
I just want to back James up. Humanity is a player-only meta concern. It provides the emotional focus of the story.
That said, it's true that often a given setting's color is built to directly support the Humanity definition. For example, for my & Sword games I use this Gothic Literature inspired world where everyone is boiling over with passions. My Humanity definition is Love because to me the setting, as judged by me an outside observer, is all about the line between when functional love turns into dysfunctional obsession. But the people in the setting? Not a clue. Not an issue. They just do what they do.
The Dictionary of Mu example is a REALLY good one because I actually had this issue come up when I ran Mu. A player did something and I called for a Humanity check and they asked me why I was doing that since the action was perfectly in line with the culture values of the society. I had to remind them that the Humanity definition for Mu is Hope and that what they did wasn't very Hopeful. It was a Humanity check precisely because it was in line with the cultural values of the society which are, pretty Hopeless. The lack of Hope within the societies of Mu is precisely it's problem and precisely what the game is about fighting against.
Jesse
Ron Edwards:
Hi everyone,
Frank, I started drafting this reply before the other replies were posted, so there are probably some redundant parts left in it.
The touchstone for Humanity checks and gain rolls is never anything more nor less than the GM’s personal sense of right and wrong, and to the extent that the group interacts about it, that sense as it exists among all the people playing. That sense may be nuanced or focused by the fictional setting, but the fictional setting cannot replace the real-world, real-person’s role.
It is not functional to play Sorcerer using a Humanity definition which is disconnected from the ethical standards of the real people playing. “That’s how they see it in the setting” is not sufficient.
To pick a possibly confusing example, in The Sorcerer’s Soul, I spent a lot of time in The Day of Dupes example, outlining Humanity as Honor as found in the novels of Alexandre Dumas and similar authors. This may look at first as if it’s contradicting my point – aren’t I defining Honor as those characters see it, and calling it Humanity? But if one looks again at my phrasing and the rhetorical points of each paragraph, I think it’s clear that I draw parallels between “musketeerial” Honor and some subtypes of modern-day morality, to the extent that the modern reader can at least see where this focused form of Humanity is coming from.
Quote
… people are playing & Sword and in the setting, society is built on oppression, slavery and corruption. Humanity is “being civilized”, as in Western philosophy civilized (Categorical Imperative etc.) I don’t want to dismiss the idea, but I’m trying to wrap my head around how this could work. Now acts that would warrant a Humaniry check would often be considered normal/expected by people, whereas Humanity gains would seem weird/unexpected. Does this work? How does it affect the game, especially in the light of addressing premise?
It works fine. The developing story and its (for lack of a better word) moral consequences regarding the fates of the main characters are being created by people who (apparently) share a moral/ethical priority concerning the westernizing of other societies. It doesn’t matter that not one single character in the story knows this.
Consider any number of historical novels and stories (or for that matter set in the future) in which the morality of the modern authors is being expressed or even self-critiqued, effectively, through critique of the overt and acknowledged morals of the fictional society. In some cases, the protagonists are openly anachronistic in their values.
I consider this feature to have lots of risks, but the issue is whether it can work and be good, and I think it can.
Best, Ron
Frank Tarcikowski:
Thanks for your replies, everyone! I have to admit I’m struggling a bit with Humanity when it’s not something entirely intuitive. I would want to avoid any debates on, e.g., what Mr. Kant would have to say about act X or Y in the context of, say, Melnibonéan society. Is this the kind of risks you are talking about, Ron?
- Frank
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