[S/Lay w/Me] O'er Plains of Ice the Sky-Ship Sails
Ron Edwards:
Due to getting interrupted during the editing, I screwed up the prose in my post. The "you're" in the sentence after the one addressed to you, Lance, actually was supposed to be "Gregor." Everything I wrote in that sentence had nothing to do with your point. So I can see where I've created a huge yip-yap out of what I was saying to whom, without much chance of disentangling it at this point.
Well, fuck it. I'll just re-write it all correctly now: My apologies for spraying the room with fog, effectively.
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I like the part about feeding him to the pigs. That fits nicely with the book text about all the horrible things that can happen to characters as long as they don't permanently wound or kill them (yet).
Regarding the input-what issue, I think I see two different things going on. The first is a simple learning curve about the whole notion of forwarding-moving Goes, which in Big Model jargon are all about Director Stance and to some extent Authority, or whatever people want to call it. A bit of play and reminding "It's your Go, you say," solves that pretty quickly. It's especially relevant to the hero's Goal. When Tim Koppang and I play, he's forever forgetting to get his hero to the Goal or vice versa, although he strives toward it all the time. So I usually end up bringing in the Goal on my terms, quite disadvantageously to the hero. This isn't a problem as it reflects Tim's aesthetic standards for what this hero and his adventures are like, but it's true that he genuinely forgets about that aspect of the rules during play, that he even can bring the Goal right into the story and define its details himself.
The second thing is a little trickier and involves the two players jointly coordinating and harmonizing exactly how they want to talk while playing this game. It's not actually hard, but it's tricky to discuss only because it's individualized for any two specific people ("dualized"? - arggh). One issue concerns much should be in a Go, which actually does tend to get resolved nicely as long as both people are enjoying play and making Goes in the first place, although I definitely feel your pain, Lance, especially in other games.
Gregor, that doesn't seem to be what you're talking about here, though. If I'm reading right, you're talking about how much person X should talk and contribute at all, during person Y's Go. Correct me if I'm mis-reading.
The rules are a lot more basic in this case, actually. The owner of a given Go is the sole author in terms of content. However, any and all table-talk is perfectly all right. As long as you both know whose Go it is, and therefore whose speaking voice really is providing the content, then chatter away as you prefer.
Best, Ron
Gregor Hutton:
Hi Ron and Lance, thanks for the comments.
You're right, Ron, for the first point it was easily resolved. In this case of my game with Brian early on I did say "It's your Go. You tell me." and we went from there. Brian rolled with it and got his head around it. The book is pretty good at saying that stuff. Mainly, I think, because it's so short and clear. I can just hand the book to the other player and say "look, you Go, you can do these things, but not those things" and this stuff is on facing pages.
The second part is a very good point about the growing experience of two people working/playing together. Content-wise Brian didn't leap in as hard as I did at first. He was initially tentative. But when faced with my Pirates stabbing him and all the cruel things I throw in, he then went on to describing smashing down doors, pulling a flintlock out of a pirate's belt and shooting them, and so on. I also amended my play to follow his lead too. And I know he left my lover there on the stone floor because I had her bash him over the head at that very place earlier in the story!
The last point about who has the say on a Go is clear too. I think some people will find that hard when they feel "their character" is stamped on by the other player on a Go. To that I say, um, have you read any R.E.H.?
I had a think about Lance's point too. Y'know while S/Lay might be seen as a big leap for those people, but I'm thinking it might actually be the best thing for them. Because in other games they're just a player in a group where you might get herd mentality or whatever, and other social politics going on (who can they look to for the answer or permission?). But in S/Lay it's two people conversing. They can say whatever they like (well, within the limits of what they can and can't say on a Go), it doesn't have to be mind blowing or "clever", just say it. They'll come to their own comfort and enjoyment level over playing the game.
I really like Breaking The Ice, but even in that you have a Player and a Guide. In S/Lay, it's moved beyond that. You have a Player and an interested partner, who will be Going next, and the Match is at hand.
The place I want to get to with S/Lay is that when I am taking Goes (as You or I) I want to be only rolling at the end of a Go when I feel because of the fiction I should move towards the Goal, or the Lover or act as the Monster (as appropriate). At the moment in the games I've played I'm driven to getting my dice on my Goes and so I seek out those things, and have so far not wandered into a colourful go that just didn't go those places. I can't wait to get a two-player relationship so that we're doing that stuff, where now and then, we don't claim the dice.
contracycle:
Quote from: Gregor Hutton on February 23, 2010, 12:35:17 PM
I had a think about Lance's point too. Y'know while S/Lay might be seen as a big leap for those people, but I'm thinking it might actually be the best thing for them. Because in other games they're just a player in a group where you might get herd mentality or whatever, and other social politics going on (who can they look to for the answer or permission?).
Jesus f'ing wept. We are developing whole new strains of brain damage here.
Ron Edwards:
Hiya,
Gareth, I learned long ago that when you deliver a pithy comment that I don't get, there's usually something I want to understand better behind it, and profit from when I do. I don't understand this one, and I'd like to, so can you turn it into a paragraph for me? I'm not joking or trying to one-up you.
Best, Ron
Gregor Hutton:
Hey, I'm interested to hear what the comment is too. I can read it a whole host of ways at the moment and I don't want to second guess it.
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