I hate compromises
CedricP:
Filip, but do you experience the same problem when you fail a skill roll? On a failed skill roll, complications are also applied. Do you also have a hard time negotiating for them? Do it also feel disconnected? Choosing between a twist or a condition and choosing how the intent succeed or fail can also lead here to compromises or negotiation.
In BW, from what I remember, there is even fewer guideline for failed rolls, a failed roll can be interpreted in a lot of ways. As for DoW, as a group it is often for us a occasion to be creative and we are looking for compromises. When we are negotiating the attitude in my group is to try to help the other side to come out with a interesting solution instead of blocking options. For us the loosing side make suggestions, but the winning side have final say. But I think we dint really made it "official". Sometime also the situation just suggest by itself the compromise. We dont really see a big difference between having to negotiate a failed skill roll and a mini game result. Except that in the mini game, we have a degree of compromise to take account off.
For the mini games, have you played TSOY and used Bringing down the pain? It also serve to zoom in on a conflict. But in Bringing down the pain, the dices give you harm results clearly related to a task or intent. Harm is maybe similar to conditions? Maybe you will prefer this kind of zoom in.
Filip Luszczyk:
Cedric,
No, I don't experience the same problem with failed rolls. I've already posted about that upthread, in my exchange with Luke, I believe? I don't quite see any process of negotiation occurring with failed rolls. The GM has limited options, but those options are his alone. Once the GM picks from the menu, the group can only deal with the outcome as a fact, no buts.
Now, please. No more posts in this thread until I respond to Raven, Judd and Frank. The exchange with Luke was distracting and until I answer those previous questions, this is likely a dead end.
Filip Luszczyk:
Oh, and yes, I did play TSoY. While I liked some ideas in TSoY, I didn't like it in play for various reasons, largely due to its general vagueness. The problem I'm describing in this thread, however - I don't think I had this particular problem in TSoY.
Filip Luszczyk:
Raven,
Here's what makes me think there might be a strong cultural factor. Note that I'm not convinced it is an actual factor, I'm only considering the possibility. It's also fairly possible this is a dead end, given that all evidence is anectodal and without an extended academic research, it's all wild guessing.
So, I keep noticing how there's this disconnect between Callan and many people at the Forge, and it seems deeper than the typical degree of disagreement in similar discussions. On the other hand, I think I generally follow Callan's posts relatively well and often just nod.
Callan is Australian, right? Often, in the threads I read here or at rpg.net only about half of the posters appears to be American or British. In this thread alone: I'm Polish, Frank is German, Moreno is Italian, perhaps other nationalities are present as well. I have this impression that Americans in particular tend to be oblivious regarding that. Technically it's "your turf", so you don't have to automatically assume other posters might be based in different countries. I'm thinking of some baffling situations like the one in this thread. For "us" foreigners, it's the norm.
Now, the hobby emerged in America. Other countries derived their gaming and design traditions from American games. However, especially in the pre-internet era, those were relatively closed enclaves. Generally, the movement of ideas was rather one sided. Other countries were continually adopting American ideas, but it seems the reverse was true pretty much only with United Kingdom. There are exceptions, like for instance The Riddle of Steel was influenced by a Polish design, and itself, it influenced Dogs in the Vineyard, which in turn is a significant influence in my current gaming environment. However, historically, those are exceptions, and generally, while ideas circulate, it's mostly ideas on paper, there isn't much direct contact through actual play.
So, I notice that American culture routinely forces consensus in ways Polish culture doesn't. I don't know about Australia, but Callan's posts in this thread suggest to me that it might be a bit closer to Poland in this respect.
While I have some vague understanding of major differences between Polish and American culture, and between Polish and British culture as well, I know next to nothing about Australia. The country rarely appears in the news, even. For me, Australia is this desert island on the other side of the globe, were wild kangaroo packs hunt herds of platypuses. You get the idea. Most of you probably possess about the same amount of knowledge about my country. Even between Europeans, there are likely to be various misconceptions and biases. The point is, I don't know a thing about Callan's cultural environment, not to mention his immediate gaming environment specifically. And yet, it seems that in that gaming enclave on the opposite side of the globe, at least in Callan's specific immediate environment, the general attitude regarding many matters might be surprisingly compatible with that of my immediate environment, in my gaming enclave. However, it doesn't seem compatible with the mindset prevalent in the geographical core of the hobby.
That's why I think culture might be a significant factor here. It might be a matter of national culture, or gaming culture specifically, or a mix of both. Culture is a fairly complex web of relations, obviously.
I'm thinking that perhaps, the procedural makeup of some games reflects and relies on some strictly cultural attitudes. Hence, some people object to the idea it should be formalized, it's so deeply integrated.
For instance, I experienced many more difficulties trying to run a Japanese system. There are some social-level things that strike me as very distinctive in some Japanese games I've seen. Like, the text explicitly insisting that the game should not be used to hurt other players. Or the passage that instructs the group to collectively clean up the host's place afterwards. Trying to apply the system in play effectively was hard - much harder than with many English trad games I've tried, even. It felt as if large chunks of the procedure were absent. Obviously, there are things coded into the Japanese social environment that didn't find its way into the text.
I notice how Polish mainstream design tradition is different from mainstream American tradition it builds upon. Polish gaming traditions started developing relatively late in comparison with other European countries. As far as games are concerned, Poland is generally about 10-15 years behind. Design wise, it's still late 90s here. However, there seems to be even greater emphasis on things like setting fluff, insanely detailed scenarios, or GM's power, the mechanical part of the design typically neglected.
My immediate gaming environment is different in that we largely (and violently, some would say) reject those traditions. The only Polish games we play are those designed among us, and those are strongly influenced by designs developed by Forge-related authors. Other games that are played regularly in our community mostly include relatively new titles, with a very strong presence of indie stuff.
These designs apparently provide fun gameplay to us, in general. So, how come there is often this sense of disconnect when visiting foreign communities?
Like in this case, I keep encountering players who fit the general profile I outlined upthread. It seems many players here and in related communities don't fit that profile, but there doesn't seem to be much compatibility with us either.
So, I think there might be something cultural about the game at the core of this disconnect. Like, the shoe fits pretty well, but we wear it on the wrong leg.
But then, there are people like Callan and Ben, who say their experiences roughly match mine.
Aaand now to your specific questions...
Noclue:
Odd how tense this thread has gotten. Our group has always found compromises after DoW's fun. They excercise our narrative abilities in interesting and surprising ways because both sides are trying to come up with a compromise that fits the mechanical resolution and makes the story better. They often take 10 seconds when the compromise is obvious and organic. If we're not all feeling it, we go back and forth for a couple of minutes until we all like what we hear. Nobody has ever tried to renege on their loss or block the other side. We all start brainstorming an interesting plot twist.
If I was in a group that took 30 minutes of arguing to come to an agreement about a DoW compromise I would no longer be in a group.
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