I hate compromises
Filip Luszczyk:
Raven,
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Is writing cooperative (or round-robin) fiction a thing restricted by culture?
Does your culture not have troupes of improv actors?
These questions are very interesting. Very interesting.
The answer is: no. There are no such things in my culture!
More specifically: they are not present in Polish culture at large. They might be present as fringe activities. It doesn't seem even close to how popularized they appear to be in American culture.
Cooperative writing? I think I recall reading a few Polish short stories that included more than a single author. For all practical purposes, as far as the reader is concerned, no impact whatsoever. It could have been a work by a single author just as well. Currently, the closest thing that seems to be present in Polish culture is PBF (and less formal role-playing forums), but that's a novelty, and it's a fringe internet activity.
I don't know about any troupes of improv actors. One of the people I regularly game with is a part-time actor, but it's not improv. What he does is a fringe activity. Improv? If there are any improv troupes, that's a fringe of the fringe.
Improv is even more obscure than cooperative writing. Myself, I learned about improv either here at the Forge or reading some related site. Also, some years back a friend linked some youtube episodes of Whose Line Is It Anyway to me, going on and on how those actors do improvised scenes according to some rules. Personally, I don't find the show particularly interesting. What I find interesting is that later I've seen links to this show posted on some gaming forums. It's a novelty.
The closest thing to improv that was present in my culture while I was being brought up was educational role-playing. It seems that back when I was in primary school, it was still a relative novelty.
So, no, I don't think these two things are present in my culture. I think they are slowly entering into my country's culture, though.
(Notice this: there doesn't seem to be common awareness of improv, and at the same time, there's a very strong emphasis on insanely detailed scenarios, with the GM, who is always right, as an entertainer. Comparisons to traditional theatre are quite a common way of explaining rpgs to people.)
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So there is this cooperative/mutualist mindset necessary for easy/successful resolution compromise-based mechanics, and I don't know if as a result of their gaming history or just their place/time in life or what, but it sounds to me like you have a bunch of argumentative players who don't what to behave like in a mutual creative enterprise, or who are afraid of creative mutualism (you mentioned there is a concern they are getting the short end of the stick in compromises) perhaps because they've been burned in the past?
I don't know, I can't think of a single gamer I know who wasn't severly burned by something in their past. Here, for instance, it seems like half of the people in the thread have ashes floating through their veins. Gaming seems to be quite a burning-prone hobby, it would seem.
Note that I've been gaming with some of those people for quite a few years now, more or less regularly, and we play together specifically because when we play together, things tend to work out. Gaming with them proves consistently fun, baring ruleset issues. It doesn't work like that with people rooted in that more mainstream tradition, especially when they fit that general no-no profile. Gaming with those is a certain way to invite frustration to the table, even before we touch any rules.
The short end of the stick? Yes, I have a concern my players get the short end. I've been playing with too many people who, if I pulled the stick strongly enough, were left with nothing in their hands, and that's no game. And yes, there's also the utterly egoistical concern that I might be the one to get the short end or nothing at all, if I the ruleset allows people to pull too strongly.
Only, you know, now I'm not perfectly sure that I want certain sorts of agreement from them, in certain moments of play. I do recall some mood-heavy games where the harmony was essential, and we worked hard to ascertain it (and it was painfully obvious when someone wasn't in harmony with the rest). But in most games we play, it feels to me that perfect agreement on the basic resolution level would strip the gameplay of, I don't know, tension, or perhaps solidity? I feel that gaping holes in the procedure like this one impoverish gameplay in some way. Or the other way around: the more complete the procedure, the more rich the gameplay feels, in comparison to various procedurally loose, impoverished games I played in the past.
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Can you tell us more about these players: are they high-school or college-age kids?
We're in the 24-31 age range, mostly. The majority is 28-31. Note that this is the upper age range for active gamers in this country. It not very common to see people past 30 active in the hobby here. Typically, people drop out after college.
There are some newcomers in the 18-21 range in our community. In BE and MG games discussed here, the 18 years old girl in my current game was the only person in this range. I did play IAWA with quite a few gamers in this range.
I find it interesting how rarely I'm gaming with people exactly my age. Other than the first few years, people I played with were typically 2-5 years older than me, or 2-5 years younger. In recent years, things tend towards the extreme ends of the scale. Newcomers to our community tend to be either close to 30 or 18-21.
Those older either integrate smoothly and stay for years or get turned off immediately. Like, there was this 31 years old guy in my Exalted Hack game last summer who left after the first session, because "it was sort of fun, but it wasn't real role-playing" (he complained that there was too much dice rolling and not enough acting, but at the same time, he complained that combats were being resolved in just a few rolls; I still can't quite wrap my mind around his logic).
Now, with those 18-21 years old newcomers, they come and go, but I have this impression that overall, they more often tend towards "amenable participation". Well, I'm sure the difference in experience is at fault here partially, as it's a bit overwhelming for them; we can talk about games and gaming for hours, they have little of their own to add.
Also, there's this very noticable generation gap between us and people born around or after 1989. Outside gaming, it's hard to find common language, often. For instance, most of us consume a lot of imported media, and very little Polish media. I think we generally agree that there is very little valuable Polish media available. In our childhood, the West was the synonym of quality and prosperity for us; it was this magical land of Coca-Cola, Disney, Bonanza and Miami Vice. Even in mid-nineties, our childhood TV heroes still included MacGyver, The A-Team and David Hasselhoff. Cheap stuff, but it was magical. Now, I consume cheap Western (well, and Japanese) media routinely, but if I reach for something Polish, it must be very good. Those post-89 newcomers? In their childhood, the West was already here. Only, it was even cheaper, our little local imitation of the West. For us, acquiring Western popular culture was always a big deal, and it was connected with a certain sense of attainment. These days, internet is a blessing. For the post-89 generation, there was never any effort involved in acquiring popular culture, there were always some local substitutes available. When they go on the internet, they generally stick to Polish sites, there's no desire of the West that we developed early in our lives. I'd bet most of them wouldn't even recognize David Hasselhoff!
However, while for us things like improv are something relatively fringe, for the post-1989 generation it's a novelty that gradually leaks into the mainstream.
So, I think there's something post-colonial going on with those of us closer to 30. Also, I think that in my immediate gaming environment, with these particular people, this is rather strong in comparison to the gaming mainstream. Outside gaming, it might be the primary social glue, even.
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Are they argumentative outside of gaming (for example, is ordering pizzas a twenty-minute affair) or otherwise have strong individualist tendencies?
Strong individualist tendencies? Yeah, probably, for most.
I wouldn't characterize us as particularly argumentative in our interactions. However, overall, most of us have rather low tolerance for shit.
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What other games do they play regularly and have they played?
Most major trad titles, most or many major indie titles. Most of us got burned with major Polish titles particularly bad.
Games that we've been regularly returning to throughout the last few years include Dogs, IAWA, PTA, Bliss Stage, d20 stuff in general, some locally designed stuff. For our BE/MG GM, add BE and MG to the list. For a few, add Savage Worlds. A few dozens of indie titles have been tried out but didn't see much replay afterwards. Some of the players try out new mainstream releases occassionally, but no replay so far. Overall, plenty of variety here, and we have a relatively rapid games turnover rate.
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Have they mentioned or have you seen a lot of dysfunction in their past groups or past games?
It's like that question about being burned. The only gamers I know who don't have their war stories are some newcomers. With other newcomers, they emerge from a sea of teenage dysfunction. Most players in those BE and MG games in question have been gaming for about 10-15 years, it's enough time to squeeze all sorts of dysfunction out of it.
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Filip, any ideas? Can you run us through any specific compromise situations that were un-fun?
Yes! Something concrete from that older MG campaign has finally popped up.
We wanted to re-visit and interrogate a bartender who, previously, sold us to agents from another city. We wanted the bartender to spill everything about those agents, he wanted to prove the Guard is oppressive or something like that, I believe. We played some good cop, bad cop. We lost with a compromise. I suggested a twist: we don't learn anything significant, but only because a dagger thrown from an unknown direction kills the bartender, and we're left with a body on the floor. Seemed adequate to the situation and pretty cinematic. I recall being very enthusiasthic about that outcome. The rest of the group was like, uh, oh, maybe, but no. Then, a few other suggestions were made, before we reached the final outcome, but I had no other ideas. I was at best neutral about those ideas and I felt sort of dissapointed. I don't even recall that final compromise now. However, I'm perfectly sure it didn't affect the campaign at large, that deal with the bartender never came up again, and we didn't engage those agents in later missions.
I gave some fresh examples upthread.
Now, this was draining. Thankfully, I have much less to say to Judd and Frank.
Jeff B:
Filip,
I was really interested to read your discussion of culturalism. Thank you for opening up on that subject. My opinion is that, indeed, a lot of internet activity such as this has an American bias ('our turf', as you said). Furthermore, a huge number of Americans would never even consider that improv acting, or perhaps stand-up comedy, is not practiced everywhere in the world.
Your comments about the Japanese game should be a clear signal to anyone that there are, indeed, serious differences in social norms in different parts of the world.
One thing in particular I want to mention, in case you are not aware of it: In America, gamers are outsiders. Tabletop adult gaming of any kind is considered a little bit unusual by a huge number of Americans, and roleplayers specifically have always been the minority. They are poorly understood by others, and many social conservatives here feel RPG is actually a very bad activity and should be avoided. So the "average" social dynamic at the gaming table is already skewed -- there is no such thing as six "average Americans" sitting down for an RPG session. Furthermore, we're talking about *alternative* RPG, as in independent developers. So now we're even *further* out toward the fringe. The mainstream D&D players in American might never have heard of Dogs in the Vineyard, or Mouse Guard, or any of the independent designs here.
I think it would be awesome some time to play in a game run by someone from another country/language/culture, or just in a group of such people. The closest example I can give is that one time in my life I played in the dungeon of a black (African-American) dungeon master. it was fascinating to me, because his whole sense of magic and atmosphere was very different from anything I'd ever seen. So I'm sure when a foreign country is involved, there would likewise be more surprises and new perspectives that would prove very interesting for me.
Jeff
Filip Luszczyk:
Jeff,
Ouch. Your response comes across as distinctively American to me, in tone. Like, in that TMW thread I linked. Of course there are serious differences in social norms in different parts of the world! How come this even needs to be "clearly signaled"? It seems to me that in different parts of the world, this is generally taken as a given. Heh, how come so many Americans, with their often stressed diversity, find that obvious fact somehow surprising?
Anyway. Here, I'm specifically wondering how those differences affect procedures in gaming texts. How much of that is coded into the text, how much is left as unstated assumptions and, most importantly, how much of that is the requirement when it comes to applying the procedure as intended.
Can you think of some examples of American games clearly targetted at different social environments in America, for comparison purposes? For instance, a game text intended for members of those outsider communities you describe, and another text written with the mainstream in mind? Does the procedure differ when it comes to social-level assumptions? Does the procedure rely on certain social factors that are specific exclusively to the outsider culture or exclusively to the mainstream culture? Or, I know there are some Christian games out there, can anyone identify such procedural factors in texts intended specifically for members of Christian communities? Does the procedure seem to showcase a culturally dependent mindset?
As for the "awesomeness" of international gaming, I did play some games with foreigners. Guess what? There were no interesting surprises or new perspectives. Aside from some linguistic issues, there was no noticeable difference in those games, at least no difference that I wouldn't encounter before with Polish gamers. However, those games were nearly exclusively one-shot, low payoff games. I can't dismiss the possibility that some interesting observations on the matter would come up over the course of a longer, high investment campaign.
All in all, I guess the thread could use splitting at this point.
Jeff B:
Filip,
My apologies if there was anything "ouch" about my post. It wasn't intended. My comments were directed at those who seemed to think such differences were unimportant. Sorry if it came across wrong.
Regarding your question: The only audience-targeting I have seen in games is appealing to one or other subset of gamers, usually based on its genre (gothic, fantasy, satire, sci-fi, and so forth). Not sure I understand your question. You're asking if a text exists that divides itself between two or more intended audiences, re. the procedures of a single game? No, I don't think I've ever seen one. There is simply no such thing as "mainstream" roleplaying in America. The entire RPG audience, whether traditional or alternative, is outside of mainstream interests.
regarding 'international gaming': You're speaking in a contradiction, on the one saying Americans lack cultural insight and on the other hand saying the international community has no cultural insight to offer Americans. If culture makes a difference, then there is necessarily something to be gained in exposure to other cultures through gaming. If you say that there are no surprises, nothing new to be found, then your theory that culture is somehow affecting gameplay is invalid. You seem to be arguing against yourself.
Jeff
Filip Luszczyk:
Jeff,
It didn't come across wrong as much as amusing. Never mind that.
Your observation regarding mainstream seems to be inconsistent with multiple threads I've read on this and related forums. I'm not asking for a text that divides itself between anything. I'm asking for the comparison of procedures tied to social level in different texts written with different audiences in mind. Like, for instance, a comparison of those in a fantasy game targeted at obsessive basement-dwelling nerds and a fantasy game targeted at young members of a conservative Christian community.
For instance, I believe Bliss Stage might have been written with American anime fandom in mind. I also believe playing the game with representative members of Polish anime fandom would likely result in an instant crash. No actual play data to back that up, though.
Regarding "international gaming" I'm only saying that my limited experiences so far, under those particular conditions, didn't provide any useful observations on the matter. However, a single session wasn't enough for me to notice the procedural issue with compromises in Mouse Guard. For that, I needed multiple instances of play. I think that if the theory is valid, gathering sufficient data to prove that would require a longer period of gaming with the same people, possibly across multiple groups.
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