Something about 'height advantage' and it's kin
Filip Luszczyk:
Christian,
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Linked to another very similar : why fudge that your character is, well let's say... 50 meters far, so that makes, let's see... -2 to shoot. This is stoopid ! Why not give the malus in the first place ? Why convert ? Why not give the malus first considering what's apropriate (say dramatically) and THEN decide what distance it represents ?
Because the moment you establish the exact distance, you can start applying movement rules. From then on, you and your target can only move that many meters per turn. Perhaps he's going to close in on you and bind you in melee before you take him down, or perhaps he will move away and next turn it's -5 to shoot. Either way, you have concrete data to work with and concrete rules to process that with, and it's all measurable. I can't decide that it's dramatically appropriate that he just closes in and cuts your head, and then decide what distance and to hit advantage and damage factors it all represented. Or, I can, but that's when I stop playing the game as is and engage in storyteller wank instead.
My pet peeve is why it's 50 meters and not 40, 90 or 53. Somebody has to set initial circumstances somehow. For example, in D&D 3.x the initial distance depends on terrain. But then, why it's dense forest and not light forest or open ground?
Christopher,
Quote from: Callan S.
In terms of AP examples: This is a bit like giving examples of breathing at the gaming table - uh, which one do you give that is any more an example than any other time? Also the mechanism behind 'height advantage' is in tons of other places in traditional designs and also in newer ones - this isn't discussing just height advantage. Skill roll bonuses, or whether you can roll a skill at all - same issue. Whether you have 'line of sight' to 'shoot someone' - same issue. How many free attacks you get on an enemy that has decided to run - same issue.
Now:
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In a Wicked Age... has no rules of the kind you are referring to for (with "height advantage" being the example)
When your character is acting with love, roll with Love.
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Primetime Adventures has no rules of the kind you are referring to for (with "height advantage" being the example)
Page 61 (second edition).
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HeroQuest has no rules of the kind you are referring to for (with "height advantage" being the example)
+3 to +6 when your ability is more specific.
-3 per additional opponent in extended contests.
(Second edition, and some of those modifiers where so fiatish that they really got on my nerves in play. Either way, I know my height advantage when I see it.)
Christopher Kubasik:
Hi Filip,
I am well aware of the rules you are citing.
Certainly we can all agree that, for example, whether nor not a character is acting "With Love" is absolutely arbitrary. We are no longer concerned, at all, whether something is really happening.
I yield on the number of opponents in HeroQuest. I forgot about that one!
I consider the rest a completely separate issue than the one Calan is bringing up. Especially as he is grounding his discussion in matters of whether there are physical details that are somehow "real."
Christopher Kubasik:
I should add that I consider the "height bonus" arbitrary as well.
I tend to prefer games these days where the mechanics deal with matters where the arbitrariness is explicit ("With Love") rather than bonus or shifts in odds pretend they're based on "real world" mechanical matters like jumping on a table.
I like them because they serve as brainstorming prods for the players. They work well. They inspire people to come up with bits of fiction that in turn inspire new bits of fiction.
Of course someone decides. Someone judges. This is a given.
Filip Luszczyk:
Christopher,
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I consider the rest a completely separate issue than the one Calan is bringing up.
Notice that this is specifically the issue Callan is bringing up. It's explicitly spelled out in the opening post, in the quoted part.
I bet it's in Sorcerer as well in some form. Even the most boardgamey titles that I know have it somewhere.
I don't know if it's a given that someone decides, though. For example, nobody decides that the monster kills me when I play Super Mario Bros, and I can't argue with my computer about that and negotiate an agreement. I'm not sure about board games, though.
Christopher Kubasik:
Filip,
All of Calan's examples in the quote you bring up still deal with the details of physical space. If I read that too narrowly, I was wrong.
None the less, the key thing here is this:
So far everyone here is agreeing with Calan on this point: Someone decides about these modifiers -- in a tabletop RPG.
If you want to start bringing up video games, that's your call.
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