[7th Sea] Problem Solving versus(?) other Roleplaying things
Big J Money:
The main theme of this thread is player (not character) problem solving at the table in relation to other common elements of role-playing.
Even better would be: and what games address this? From any angle; using any tack.
In a game of 7th Sea, I was playing a rogueish character who was born of a noble family he left behind (oppressive parenting) as a young adult to pursue the means to become a man on his own. He was an anti-hero who was raised among nobility but educated and seasoned by the streets. A few years of this kind of education prompted the interest of an uncle he hardly knew who began to pay and supply him for espionage services involving courtly affairs. Eventually he found himself freelancing on a privateer vessel both as a cover and a means to acquire some allies; of which he had none beside his uncle.
In one encounter, the characters who were played by us were tasked with breaking into a (presumably) corrupt Governor's mansion during a party to locate some documents and possibly an item of mysterious archaeological significance.
The story was set and, as players, we began to brainstorm the challenges we imagined our characters would face. We investigated the mansion for a week in advance of the ball and probed the GM for as much info as we could get. Then we formulated a plan. Mostly, we role-played the formulation of this plan through the voices of our characters, but there were some clarifications that had to be made outside of the use of the character's voices and minds before properly completing our brilliant plan. I certainly didn't limit my character's plan formulation abilities to his statistics, yet I imagined him to be mentally similar enough to me that this wouldn't have been a concern anyway.
Our plan got the characters into serious trouble and it exploded, although they survived the situation and somehow managed to piece together the mission from the scraps of disaster. (Note: they did not fail through dice or anything, but our plan simply was not a good one in the context of the situation we arrived at)
I remember my thoughts at the time well enough to know that I had absolutely not a single concern for the fiction or the story. My only concern was helping invent a plan to get the characters to where they would succeed the mission. I would later take the time to enjoy the story as it played on in real-time; but no concern was given to it beforehand. In my mind, they were as separate events: 1) the players' planning stage and 2) the characters' story stage. (Yes, this thinking is inconsistent with the fact that we were creating fiction during the planning stage too; but in those days I didn't catch this distinction.)
We had fun, but the group was a little down about the failure of the plan. We had definitely failed and we knew it. Yet, in the end we were completely satisfied due to the cool story it created.
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I think the underlined is what has always drawn me towards role-playing over the years: I like being presented with a fictional challenge and having to help the group solve it, creatively. I may be limited to the resources of 1 protagonist in the challenge, yet I never imagine the plan formulation itself to be limited by any 'plan formulation skills' of that character. If it seems necessary to be consistent with fiction, then I step outside the character and continue to plan by suggesting how other characters/resources belonging to the group could fill roles I imagine. Of course, being a social activity this involves back and forth discussion of everyone's input until a final synthesis is agreed upon. Then you get to see how that plan hits the situation as the GM relays back to you the situation's response and asks for updates on the behavior of whatever resources the players control. It should go without saying this requires a group that is able/willing to go through the planning process.
However I have a concern that if a game or GM isn't prepared to handle this element of play, that it could ruin the process of play and story generation. I'm also interested in the notion that this isn't really part of the basic play cycle of role-playing; it's almost like an optional mini-game. Yet still I think it is my favorite.
Are there any thoughts, experiences or games on this topic?
-- John M.
Callan S.:
Hi John,
You could look at beast hunters, which was designed with an aim to try and support this type of play (assuming I understand you) more so than you usually see.
As I understand you, it's usually how I play, or atleast where I as a group member lean toward in play. Though I find the GM just listening to the plan often unsatisfying. It's hard to tell if it really outmatched his conception of the situation and he conceded, or if he just decided to let it work, or where on the scale between the two it was. Personally I prefer there to be hard game currencies, some of which can be garnered by coming up with game plans, then it also requires clever manipulation of the currency to suceed. And by clever I don't just mean someone (like the GM) thinks is clever, but something I'd often fail at if not concentrating on the resource management, and even fail sometimes when concentrating.
I'm honestly not sure about my group anymore though - while they'd ra ra killing something tough, I once made up a combat system for a new game my friend wanted to make. It involved a lot of mechanical rules for leap dodge from cover to cover, shooting foes. I showed it to my friend and...he just said the GM would have to put in work so the players didn't just go leaping around in circles. He was right, they would, but it would be hard - and it didn't seem to show on his radar - indeed it seemed the aesthetically unpleasing 'going around in circles' was his priority. The guy who used to make up characters with huge strength and a huge axe, etc thought the circles would be a glaring thing in the fiction??
Anyway, I like your distinction between making the plan and then after having done so, the fiction/story making rolls on. Kind of a 'roll up your sleves' mode and then a 'continue with the story' mode. It's good to make a distinction so you and everyone else knows what your doing.
BTW, I heard you couldn't die in 7th sea? Or have I heard wrong?
Mike Sugarbaker:
There's a passage from Nick Montfort's book Twisty Little Passages: An Approach To Interactive Fiction that's stuck with me. He's writing about the digital medium of the text adventure, but he situates it in the tradition of the literary riddle, which is "older than history." He quotes the poet Richard Wilbur on riddles:
Quote
To make a riddle, or to answer one, was to see the peculiar qualities of an object or creature, to discern its resemblance to other forms and forces, and to have an insight into the relatedness of all phenomena, the reticulum of the world.
Montfort goes on to emphasize that "[t]he riddle can accomplish certain things by inviting the riddlee to awaken to a new vision of the world." This puts the riddle in RPGs firmly in place as a tool of immersion - but specifically immersion into the world, not a character or even a story.
That seems like it squares pretty well with your experience. I don't know of any design work that addresses it specifically; I know the NASCRAG group that organizes a large amount of D&D play at Gen Con every year puts heavy emphasis on puzzles, although they don't seem articulate about it at their site.
Callan S.:
Really skeptical about that conclusion, Mike. Someone can be at the table and look and act exactly like someone who puts the fiction first, and yet they can have not a single concern for the fiction or the story, as John puts it. Think of it as a gamer equivalent of a bodysnatchers moment - you assume you'd know if someones not putting the fiction first, but actually you could be surrounded by them and not know it at all.
Big J Money:
Thanks Callan! I'll check out Beast Hunters and then post what I think here. I'm taking a trip to Warsaw for several months and.... who knows, maybe I'll have the opportunity to introduce some people to it. Otherwise, I'll post my thoughts on the Beast Hunters text as it relates to my 7th Sea experience.
Another game I've found recently that has me intrigued is Blood Red Sands. It's not quite everything I'm talking about (possibly because it doesn't have a GM role?) but it does certainly have some element of using your creativity to invent a paradigm that helps you "win". Actually, in BRS, the "win" shouldn't even go into quotations because it really is about winning.
Also, your last comment really has be spooked. I had never considered that before.
-- John M.
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