The rule "'fiction' determines what rules can be deployed" - definition of murk?
Callan S.:
Quote from: David P. on August 22, 2010, 06:12:46 AM
What I'm taking away from that is if your move is challenged, you're not forced to use a different rule, but rather to change the fiction until it allows the rule to be 'successfully' embedded, which seems to be completely counter form what you're saying.
However, if you were arguing that it was an example of the mechanics first, then we're on the same page, and I simply misunderstood what you were saying. Could you clarify which is your stance?
Well, that's an interesting interpretation. I was calling it fiction first. I've been showing this rule in chunks because it's rather a big piece of text, and perhaps I've spoiled context in doing so. Forgive me for the big quote I'm going to do :)
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Challenge the Fiction
During the game there will be times when another player’s actions just don’t feel right. Maybe you think a particular tactic is dirty pool, or a particular action is a cheap shot. Most of the time when a move feels cheap or lame or uninspiring it’s because it was not properly embedded in the fiction.
When you have the right lead in, the right foreshadowing, the right justifications, then that very same move will feel right. It will feel like it belongs, like it’s a natural next development in the story.
When it doesn’t feel right, Rise Up and Challenge it. You can’t Challenge the move, after all it’s a competitive game and your opponent can act as he likes within the rules. But you can Challenge the fiction surrounding the move. It’s a rule of the game that every player is responsible for embedding their mechanical choices in the fiction according to the story aesthetic appropriate to your group. Failing to do so not only produces lame play, it’s against the rules.
You can’t control what actions your opponents choose to take, but you can require them to frame their actions firmly within the fiction. If they do so in a way that makes the action feel more appropriate and alleviates your concern, great, if not, Challenge the fiction until they come up with something the majority of the group can enjoy (or, if they can’t, until they decide to do something else.)
Bold mine.
Now I interpret that 'decide to do something else' to mean until they use another rule (and for anyone who think that contradicts the 'you can't control what actions your opponents choose to take' notion, I do too).
In your interpretation, what happens when one person is sticking with a mechanic, but someone else keeps challenging, over and over and over, no matter what fiction the other guy says? Or would you say this challenge loop could not happen? How it looks to me, you'd have to decide either the mechanic choice comes first. Or the fiction comes first and he has to choose another mechanic. So I'd need to know more about your interpretation. And tell me if you think I'm presenting a false dichotomy or that the loop couldn't happen. I think they would, but I'm not trying to simply force discussion along the lines that they would.
Callan S.:
Hi Alfryd,
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but I think this definition of "fiction first" conflates Sim priorities with whatever metagame agenda (Positioning?) the players might have.
I think some people can play universalis without ignoring the rules, and others would ignore the rules of universalis on certain occasions 'because it makes sense' or whatever fiction reference they give. I don't think it's an agenda vs meta-game thing.
In terms of railroading, it's a word with alot of emotive gamer history. I'll go with what masqueradeball said. This isn't about railroading - you can use this process I'm refering to facilitate a railroad, I'll grant. But in itself it isn't railroading. It's about two processes and which one is being used. One is that all rules are followed as they instruct. The other process is that that someone decides whether any rule is used, based on their own internal judgement - this latter one can be used in various ways. Using it to railroad or not doesn't somehow change the process in some way. It's still the same process.
Hi masqueradeball,
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I don't think the question is about railroading or about CA, I think its about procedure, which has president, the RAW or the fiction. Its not the same as railroading because its not about GM limiting player authority, and its not about CA because it could be used to support or detract from any. It seems like its a basic social contract issue: How much do I have to "narrate" my use of the mechanics into the story before I'm allowed to use them and how much power does Player X's vision of the narrative allow them to override the mechanics (when interpretted in their most simple or direct way, that is to say, is the in game narrative that decides if the "spirit" trumps the letter of the law). If this isn't understood as part of the Social Contract, than its really hard to identify because where the fiction:mechanics split happens is entirely within a given players head.
I think your getting it, but it doesn't have to be a social contract issue at all, the game itself can be designed in advance to cover this. So rather than a social contract issue, it's a game design issue, to my mind. Not much different to what your saying, but centered on the games design. It sounds pedantic of me, but I think it's important.
masqueradeball:
Callan, cool, I think I understand, so whether or not Fiction First play is a good or bad thing goes into the big bag of player tastes and game-by-game priorities. Strangely, my own game design actually addresses this a lot, where Fiction First is totally true (you just "free form" while modifying some point totals based on what happens in the narrative) until a player decides they want dice, and then its not quite "Fiction Second" but something close, as all of the fiction for that segment of play is derived from mechanics. This reminds me of Vincent Baker's clouds and boxes over at anyway... just talking about where and how fiction and mechanics feed into one another.
Callan S.:
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Callan, cool, I think I understand, so whether or not Fiction First play is a good or bad thing goes into the big bag of player tastes and game-by-game priorities.
No. Using the process of fiction first has ramifications, rather huge ramifications, upon the rest of a design. You can undercut your own priorities by using the fiction first process. Apart from that, yes, it's a taste thing. I suppose.
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Strangely, my own game design actually addresses this a lot, where Fiction First is totally true (you just "free form" while modifying some point totals based on what happens in the narrative) until a player decides they want dice,
If the written procedure is that you narrate alot and occasionaly, as decided by someone, modify point totals, it's not fiction first. Your following the written procedure. Atleast at that point.
Actually a question on that, is there a written procedure on when and how you get from that to the giant snake fight, for example?
Now if your talking about your playtest - where the player had 'impervious to harm' but you denied its bonus dice because you thought it didn't apply against the giant snake - if the written procedure is you as GM decide if the traits extra dice are applied or not, your following the procedure in deciding. If it isn't in the procedure and the trait dice are supposed to be added every time, then you were operating from fiction first process, ignoring the rules in favour of 'what makes sense' in that the snake could still grapple the guy even if he's impervious to harm. Which way is it in the written procedure?
masqueradeball:
The rules state that Traits can be used when applicable in the fiction, and that GM has final authority over when a trait is applicable, so I guess this isn't fiction first.
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