The rule "'fiction' determines what rules can be deployed" - definition of murk?
David P.:
I understand your logic pattern with regard to the idea of the continual loop. That being said, I think it is wrong. For one, the "Well, what happens if someone keeps challenging and it keeps getting rejected?" could happen whether the fiction was being changed to suit the rule, or a new rule being used altogether, so I dont see anything inherently different between your interpretation of the rules and mine, in that regard.
However, I also challenge the idea that there is even a continual loop in the first place.
The fact that the rules end with, 'until they decide to do something else' seems to support the idea of offering new fiction to suit the rule as opposed to offering a new rule for a given situation. The rules state that a player can be challenged to reframe their action to embed in the fiction.
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It’s a rule of the game that every player is responsible for embedding their mechanical choices in the fiction according to the story aesthetic appropriate to your group.
To me, this says that after a choice of mechanics is made, it needs to be properly fit into the fiction. When challenged, the challenge isn't directed toward the rule, but rather the implementation of it within the fiction. When combined with 'until they decide to do something else' seems to mean that a player that is challenged can either reframe their implementation of the rule to fit the fiction, or choose a new rule to implement.
Either way, the loop isn't an inherent flaw in the system. It's the flaw of a stubborn player, either one who is adamant about using a certain rule, or another player's continual filibustering. However, considering that the rules state that the group determine whether the new fiction is appropriate, it's more likely to result from a stubborn player trying exploit a mechanic that doesn't fit within the story aesthetic that the group wanted (like trying to build a pistol in a game where it's been agreed that there are none, despite whether a system has rules for firearms.
At any rate, a single player can't control the actions of another's character anyway, since at the end of the day, it comes down to group consensus. Further, even if it wasn't determined by a consensus, this rules is not allowing one player to control any actions, just bar actions that don't fit the aesthetic. It's not someone saying, "No, you do this instead." It's more like saying "That doesn't work quite that way. Try again."
The way I see one of the loops going would be like this:
Player 1 states they want to do something.
Player 2 challenges.
Player 1 alters the specifics of his action.
Group consensus.
If denied, start with step 1, where a can choose to pursue a different action altogether, or try to fit the action within the fiction.
On a separate note, if I were designing a system like this, I would have a consensus to immediately follow a challenge and if the group decides that the act shouldn't work like that, then it goes back to the initial player to reframe, but if the group as a whole determines that the action is suitable, then they simply move from there.
I feel as though I'm ranting though, so I'm going to stop here for now.
Callan S.:
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For one, the "Well, what happens if someone keeps challenging and it keeps getting rejected?" could happen whether the fiction was being changed to suit the rule, or a new rule being used altogether, so I dont see anything inherently different between your interpretation of the rules and mine, in that regard.
Yep. I didn't say the fiction first interpretation of the did any better. Just that in the end, textually the fiction wins the tie.
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Either way, the loop isn't an inherent flaw in the system. It's the flaw of a stubborn player, either one who is adamant about using a certain rule, or another player's continual filibustering. However, considering that the rules state that the group determine whether the new fiction is appropriate, it's more likely to result from a stubborn player trying exploit a mechanic that doesn't fit within the story aesthetic that the group wanted
Your supposed to be judging the fiction, not judging the player. If you start determining what you challenge based off the player, you are simply not following the rules any more. All you've done is crash the loop by ignoring the rules yourself. If you don't ignore the rules, the loops still there.
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At any rate, a single player can't control the actions of another's character anyway, since at the end of the day, it comes down to group consensus. Further, even if it wasn't determined by a consensus, this rules is not allowing one player to control any actions, just bar actions that don't fit the aesthetic. It's not someone saying, "No, you do this instead." It's more like saying "That doesn't work quite that way. Try again."
I'm not forcing you to take a particular card, I'm just saying not that one. Try again! Nor that one. Nor that one. 49 to go...gosh you are stubborn, aren't you!
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The way I see one of the loops going would be like this:
I don't understand - your examples seem to be the same loop prone stuff? They look exactly the same? Am I missing something? I need to know how your loop ends. You just seem to be operating off some sort of good faith that it'll all just work out on it's own (and equally if it isn't working out, it's because someones being stubborn). If you want to believe some sort of good faith will work it out and only some bad apples can stop that - in conversing on it I'll only attempt to dismantle that notion. If you want to hold onto what you believe, I wouldn't engage in conversation on this matter with me. I'll just keep cutting and stabbing at that. But I wont do so without permission from you. You've room to let this lie, if you wish.
Ron Edwards:
All right, Callan, that's enough.
You're not cutting and stabbing at flawed points. You're claiming others are making flawed points that you articulate, and then cut and stab at that.
Even without that, it's time to end. In all these pages, you've either made your point for readers to appreciate and consider, short term or long, or you haven't. Looking at the discussion as it stands, it's there to be decided. I see no reason for continuing with what appears to be a bear pit, Callan in the middle, even if you're happy with it.
Moderator's call: the thread's over. Anyone is free to start new ones based on anything raised here, abiding for forum rules for content.
Best, Ron
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