Roll-Playing Versus Roleplaying
Callan S.:
I guess one of the reasons I held off posting, is because I'd say 'So that moment of judgement - you can decide for him how he judged the matter? As in you say he definately denied the moment of judgement. Like you know the process of his own mind better than he does?'. It's like there's actually a second moment of judgement going on in the observer here, as to whether the other person is 'thinking right'.
While I think that that's technically correct, there is nothing in the universe I'm aware of that ensures saying what's technically correct will go well.
It measures up like this: if the rule hands the GM full authority on this, it's just 'I don't have to follow rules/what I've agreed to if I don't think somethings right' on the observers part. Indeed I'm pretty sure lumpley principle is either being bent to this idea these days, or was this all along (and I projected a functional variant onto it when first readig it).
Historically : Of course you have a mechanical set up where nasty things like your characters ears getting clipped off (we have an old thread on that somewhere), or being orc raped, or whatever are within the wideranging capacity the rules grant him. Human brain thinking this can't be right, it argues against it. This becomes a gamer tradition. And it becomes traditional to ignore the rules on a regular basis and call it 'good roleplaying'.
Frank Tarcikowski:
Hi Callan, let me make a few clarifications. I didn’t say Nick’s GM denied the Moment of Judgment, I said that Nick felt he had denied it. That’s a huge difference. I don’t claim to know what’s going on inside other people’s heads. For Nick’s game, heck, I don’t even know enough to say how I would have ruled, as GM.
But in a game I play in myself, I will have a notion of what makes sense and “fits” in the fiction and I will argue it to the other players if I feel the need. I indeed believe that these things are not purely subjective, there are objective criteria by which they can be reasonably assessed. That’s not the same as saying my own judgment is always right, mind you. Of course it isn’t. I remember we debated this exact question before and had to agree to disagree, so let’s maybe not resurrect that debate.
Concerning all those bad gamer traditions, luckily I’ve had contact with them almost exclusively in internet discussions. I don’t really care about them. Abuse is always possible, but a concept isn’t wrong because the wrong people mistakingly applaud it. But let’s be clear about one thing: “The GM is always right” is the most stupid sentence that has ever been written in an RPG book.
It’s sometimes helpful for players to not question every single call by the GM and grant him the benefit of the doubt so play can move on and not be stuck in endless discussions and justifications. But that requires the players to trust the GM is not trying to screw them over, and such trust cannot be imposed by the author of an RPG book. You don’t just claim it as a GM. You need to earn it.
- Frank
Caldis:
My reading of the initial situation (and what Nick was complaining about in regards to gather information checks etc.) is a difference between the players and gm on the value of System (in this case specifically the mechanical factor of a skill check) versus Character, Situation and Setting. The Gm is emphasizing the system and allowing the specifics to be abstracted by resorting to a skill check. What the character said makes sense and has some value so we'll check on it but he doesnt value the situation enough to develop it further by exploring the character of the caravan driver and his response to being attacked and engage the pc in a dialogue that could change how the situation turned out. In the end he resorted to system and let the roll determine the relatively meaningless results of the situation.
I talked a bit about D&D earlier but I'll expand a bit. D&D featured a lot of combat and we at one point tried getting dramatic and making descriptions of our actions, swinging swords wildly or crouching and aiming for a certain target point, but all those descriptions are essentially meaningless when you have a group of 10th level characters with 60-90 hit points fighting a half dozen monsters with similar hit points. The abstract nature of hit points and the combat system rendered the description of the actions meaningless. You could describe the most amazing battle manuever but it didnt really matter it all came down to the math of subtracting hit points until the combat was resolved.
I think that is the heart of the matter. A willingness to abstract that level of detail is harmful to any vision of what is going on in the moment. I think one of the problems in detailed complex systems, like the D&D combat system or Gurps and its infinite skill list is that the mechanics can easily overpower the fictional content. I'm not sure whether it's an actual desire or preference on the part of those doing it or just a habit that one tends to slip into but it's definitely something I've noticed since the beginning of my experience with rpg's.
masqueradeball:
Caldis: But the opposite can be equally true. If things are two specific or tie too specifically to "in fiction" content, people either have to frame their narrative to the rules (which they have to do an a highly abstract system, like AD&D's combat system (one roll per minute)) or they have to try to determine how rules apply to fictional content in a very specific way.
Callan S.:
Hi Frank,
As much as I understand you describe it as relevant whether the GM shared some sort of moment of judgement. Your only question is whether he was doing this or something else. Let's say hypothetically he definately did share a moment of judgement with Nick, then denied it - your saying in that case that denial of judgement is relevant somehow, when the shared rule is the GM pretty much does whatever?
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