Roll-Playing Versus Roleplaying
Frank Tarcikowski:
Hey Callan, but it's not "the GM does whatever"! The GM gets to make the call, but not all calls are equal. That's exactly my point.
- Frank
Callan S.:
Frank, your so used to taking the left fork in the road, so to speak, when I try to point out the right fork in contrast, you think I'm refering to the left and that's also the one I'm taking "Come on, you know the GM doesn't get to do whatever - your here next to me on the left fork in the road!". I'm not.
The rule says the GM can do whatever then he can do whatever and all calls are exactly equal. It's like in chess where if the rules say he can move a piece a certain way, he can, and all the moves he can make are equal. As in they are all perfectly valid. In an RPG however he uses 'do whatever' it's valid use of the rules, no matter how much suck 'whatever' is. This is the right fork in the road.
"But that's horrible!"
Yes it is. It pushes, bloody strongly, the desire to design rules that grant the GM considerably less power and the rule empowered ability to only do fun things (fun by the designers measure, atleast, and playtesting to check that's the case whilst in design). To move on from 'The text says the GM can do anything...but he can't do anything, ya know!'
I would question exactly who is somehow empowered to decide which calls aren't equal, but there's not much point. I'm pretty sure having described the right fork, you'd say it's drastically different from what you do (am I wrong?). It's an alien at the dinner table moment for you ("You can't seriously play in that way!"), if I estimate correctly. But atleast you know when I say whether he ignored the moment of judgement is irrelevant, I'm talking about having taken the right fork in the road, not the left.
Frank Tarcikowski:
Callan, I understand your line of argument, but I don't understand your point. I just can't relate to it, like, at all. To pick up on your example of Chess, if someone were to play Chess with me and make random moves, valid by the rules but without any strategy whatsoever, so I'd wipe him out in no time (although I'm a lousy Chess player), what point is there for either of us playing? There isn't any. So is Chess broken, as a game? Of course it's not! Would Chess need rules to stop people from making stupid moves, is that your conclusion? Are you looking for a game that people can enjoy by making random decisions, without any purpose or common sense, just by following the rules?
- Frank
Callan S.:
Facinating. The fork grows deeper.
Quote
To pick up on your example of Chess, if someone were to play Chess with me and make random moves, valid by the rules but without any strategy whatsoever, so I'd wipe him out in no time (although I'm a lousy Chess player), what point is there for either of us playing? There isn't any.
Except there is. I win!
Of course there is the gamist honour of whether you keep beating clueless people (the gamism essay even touches on this).
But that aside, it's still fun to beat even a randomly playing person.
So yes, games already exist that can be enjoyed by making random decisions without any purpose or common sense. A hell of alot of them.
The fun is at the human relations level - I enjoy that between me and them, my relationship involve me having won over them. I'm pretty sure Nar can do the same, simply by having a modicum of human relations understanding between participants 'It was scary when Luke realised he was becoming like his dad!'
I have no idea about sim. But I really don't think gamism or nar need to follow 'not all calls are equal' at all as they are fun with all calls being equal. Because certainly in gamisms case, there are thousands of examples where random play is still fun to beat. And nar - well, nar hasn't been around as long, so perhaps it's debateable. But I think it shares many qualities with gamism and so most likely can be fun with random play.
More fun without random play? Sure! But a bit of a laugh even with random play? Yes.
But what was facinating, when I read your words, I get flashes of what you do and how that made you choose those words. But it doesn't sync with me and the flash collapses before I can see it much at all. And by talking about the above, I've probably talked over it. :(
I just get this flash reading 'So is Chess broken, as a game? Of course it's not! Would Chess need rules to stop people from making stupid moves' and I just get this vague notion you see your own common sense as some sort of binding agent or something. Like chess is some dreadfully hollow shell, like a house in desperate need of renovation, and your common sense and purpose that makes the real value house in the end. Like it's nothing without that. Kind of like players are hero's bring life to a grey, dead and desolate landscape.
Just a flash. The notion of chess being absolutely hollow was stunningly counter intuitive to me, so I decided to mull it over.
masqueradeball:
Playing chess not to win is not playing chess. Its like if we play poker, but there's no money involved, and people bet like the chips don't mean anything... this might be fun or functional or whatever but its not what most people are looking for when they talk about playing poker. I can't remember the name of the thread but this reminds me of a topic you started about people playing D&D and not wanting to have a big conversation about what playing D&D is about or this game is about or whatever.
When you sit down to play chess you do so with certain expectations that are probably reasonable, for the other person not to share those expectations isn't a negative quality in them, but it is a miscommunication between the two of you, because without those expectations your fundamentally changing the nature of the game.
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